> Where have you seen successful attempts to give men an exit from a toxic culture, rather than to help women get a foothold in that culture?
The first thing that comes to mind is the normalization (in some spaces, at least) of taking paternity leave. Obviously we have a LONG way to go with maternity leave and support for new moms, but I love that we are beginning to create more space for early fatherhood as well.
To the first question, I see this most often in the realm of work. “Now you too can conform to the ideal worker norm and place wage labor over your own health and caregiving!” More particularly, it sometimes seems that the toxic environment women are welcomed into is one that denigrates caregiving, whether through low wages or social disapproval, instead of one that values the caregiving work many women (and men) were already doing.
To the second question, I really like how “girls can play with boy toys” from my own childhood has expanded to “all children can play with all toys.” I love that my son is free to play with trucks and dolls and that this is completely unremarkable. He’s 3 years old and he has absolutely no concept that some toys might not be for him, he just plays with whatever he wants.
This is not exactly a concrete example, but it strikes me how Christian virtues are often (traditionally associated with) women virtues. Humility, meekness and obedience - even fidelity - are definitely not considered virtues for men in our culture, and that may well be why it is toxic ! But imitating Jesus' virtues is supposed to be a goal for both men and women.
I'm not quite sure what is the point I'm trying to make here, but it's a something I've find useful to tell when discussing feminism with conservative catholic men...
I think motherhood may be one area where I see women slotting themselves into a toxic culture and calling it "equal progress." Lots of people on here are talking about work culture and I think this is tied into my point on parenthood. I am often surprised by how I see a shift in our culture celebrating non-chalant, disinterested motherhood as if its somehow "winning" or sending a message that it is good and right for mothers to not prioritize their children and instead prioritize careers or even just independence and freedom. It appears that fatherhood may have always suffered from access to these vices but instead of asking fathers to be MORE dedicated parents in some ways we seem to be saying a selfish and checked out approach to motherhood is something that should be celebrated for women?
As a single woman in my early 30's who lives alone and works for a firm that is still remote, I miss office life *terribly*. I realize how so much of my social life came through work -- there are relatively few spaces in modern adult life where you see the same people with the kind of frequency that allows friendship to grow at a slow and natural pace. So many of my friends and people I've dated are folks I met through happy hours, friends of work friends, etc. To have that missing in my life at a pretty crucial point in terms of wanting marriage/family formation has been devastating. I've also found that the lack of physical separation has led to my work life bleeding into my "normal" life in ways I don't like, and an unshakeable feeling of never being fully on or off the clock.
I absolutely support a more flexible and hybrid workplace, but for me and others in similar situations, work from home has been profoundly isolating.
Where have you seen progress framed as equal representation in a toxic culture, rather than dismantling that culture?
Isn't this the state of much of modern feminism? Gaining equality on men's terms, terms that were always toxic to begin with?
Your job is your life, so be a workaholic.
As for sex, tell women that they are prudish if they don't go along with the program. Casual sex proves you're empowered. Porn frees women from their hangups.
Where have you seen successful attempts to give men an exit from a toxic culture, rather than to help women get a foothold in that culture?
Someone mentioned paternity leave. I would add a greater sensitivity among some men that workaholism isn't the way to go, and that raunch culture harms men as well as men because it harms relationships.
Personally, I do like having a buffer zone between work and home - remote work means it's harder to set boundaries between the two at times. But a lot of that depends on length of commute, etc.
In my experience, "progress" is defined in terms of how men experience the world.
Breast is best" but no paid leave and rigid work schedules force women to use expensive and unpleasant breast pumps and then fiddle around with all of the milk storage accoutrements rather than just pick up the baby and feed her when she's hungry.
The arguments by Manchin and some Republicans against the extended child tax credit..that only "working" parents deserve this support--this assumes that caring for your own young children is not valid "work" and if that is "all" you are doing, you are a lazy moocher.
Expecting women to spend literally decades of their lives dosing themselves with hormones in order to control their fertility. I am all for women being able to plan their families, but why is it that we are still relying on a method invented 75 years ago to do so?
Combat roles are now open to women. Yay? I mean....that is messed up. Now we can experience the trauma of battle too!
I could go on, but I'm sure others can add to this rant. :)
"We want better options for both men and women. Progress can look less like 50-50 representation and more like neither men nor women participating in a warped culture."
This is niche, but as someone who suspects both that men are, on average, "naturally" more interested in STEMlordism (being the next Feynman, etc) than women are *and* that women's full STEM talent has yet to be tapped, I don't consider it "progress", exactly, for gifted and talented women in math and science to slot themselves into a guy's PhD schedule.
Those concerned (or at least concern-trolling) that our boys are being left behind in an increasingly "feminized" early-education environment often concede that girls tend to develop earlier academically than boys do. They see trying to give girls and boys the same kind of education as unfair to the young men those boys will become. I say, though, it's also less-than-ideal for the talented girls.
I do not think we should consider it unfair to boys to accelerate talented girls' academic development more than boys' in the early years. After all, the talented, interested boys do tend to catch up later anyhow — and are unlikely to take time off later to bear children.
While I'm not wild about the idea of throwing a 15- or 16-year-old girl into our current typical college social environment simply because she already took the opportunity offered her to master multivariate calculus, I think it would also help, anyhow, if college became less about a life-stage than an educational stage (for those who benefit from it — not everyone will).
The whole progression of prep-school (or its well-zoned public-school equivalent) to college to (maybe) graduate school was developed for the social elite of an earlier era, anyhow. While I expect there'll always be a place for the "failsons" of the wealthy to cross-subsidize the less-wealthy interested and talented in higher education, the life-stage homogeneity we've come to expect of college could probably stand to die in favor of recognizing aptitude for differing subjects peaks at differing times, and integrates with differing gender roles differently.
does this equate to putting (allowing?) women on the front lines in combat situations? should men - or anyone - be there? but, if men or there, in a just society, i believe women should be there too. war certainly strikes me as evidence of toxic masculinity. but, it's also a very human occurrence. do women belong there on the front lines, shoulder to shoulder with men?
I'm a progressive Catholic mom of 12 year old daughter. Looking for smart, thoughtful theological reflection on sexuality to pass on to my daughter, and theology of the body seems limited. I like how you think, your willingness to take marriage and family off a pedestal, your belief that women shouldn't seek equality in a broken system. Help! How do I talk to my daughter about pleasure, sex, motherhood in a way that honors herself and the other, leaves space for contribution instead of or in addition to motherhood, honors single and gay people
> Where have you seen successful attempts to give men an exit from a toxic culture, rather than to help women get a foothold in that culture?
The first thing that comes to mind is the normalization (in some spaces, at least) of taking paternity leave. Obviously we have a LONG way to go with maternity leave and support for new moms, but I love that we are beginning to create more space for early fatherhood as well.
To the first question, I see this most often in the realm of work. “Now you too can conform to the ideal worker norm and place wage labor over your own health and caregiving!” More particularly, it sometimes seems that the toxic environment women are welcomed into is one that denigrates caregiving, whether through low wages or social disapproval, instead of one that values the caregiving work many women (and men) were already doing.
To the second question, I really like how “girls can play with boy toys” from my own childhood has expanded to “all children can play with all toys.” I love that my son is free to play with trucks and dolls and that this is completely unremarkable. He’s 3 years old and he has absolutely no concept that some toys might not be for him, he just plays with whatever he wants.
This is not exactly a concrete example, but it strikes me how Christian virtues are often (traditionally associated with) women virtues. Humility, meekness and obedience - even fidelity - are definitely not considered virtues for men in our culture, and that may well be why it is toxic ! But imitating Jesus' virtues is supposed to be a goal for both men and women.
I'm not quite sure what is the point I'm trying to make here, but it's a something I've find useful to tell when discussing feminism with conservative catholic men...
I think motherhood may be one area where I see women slotting themselves into a toxic culture and calling it "equal progress." Lots of people on here are talking about work culture and I think this is tied into my point on parenthood. I am often surprised by how I see a shift in our culture celebrating non-chalant, disinterested motherhood as if its somehow "winning" or sending a message that it is good and right for mothers to not prioritize their children and instead prioritize careers or even just independence and freedom. It appears that fatherhood may have always suffered from access to these vices but instead of asking fathers to be MORE dedicated parents in some ways we seem to be saying a selfish and checked out approach to motherhood is something that should be celebrated for women?
As a single woman in my early 30's who lives alone and works for a firm that is still remote, I miss office life *terribly*. I realize how so much of my social life came through work -- there are relatively few spaces in modern adult life where you see the same people with the kind of frequency that allows friendship to grow at a slow and natural pace. So many of my friends and people I've dated are folks I met through happy hours, friends of work friends, etc. To have that missing in my life at a pretty crucial point in terms of wanting marriage/family formation has been devastating. I've also found that the lack of physical separation has led to my work life bleeding into my "normal" life in ways I don't like, and an unshakeable feeling of never being fully on or off the clock.
I absolutely support a more flexible and hybrid workplace, but for me and others in similar situations, work from home has been profoundly isolating.
Where have you seen progress framed as equal representation in a toxic culture, rather than dismantling that culture?
Isn't this the state of much of modern feminism? Gaining equality on men's terms, terms that were always toxic to begin with?
Your job is your life, so be a workaholic.
As for sex, tell women that they are prudish if they don't go along with the program. Casual sex proves you're empowered. Porn frees women from their hangups.
Where have you seen successful attempts to give men an exit from a toxic culture, rather than to help women get a foothold in that culture?
Someone mentioned paternity leave. I would add a greater sensitivity among some men that workaholism isn't the way to go, and that raunch culture harms men as well as men because it harms relationships.
Personally, I do like having a buffer zone between work and home - remote work means it's harder to set boundaries between the two at times. But a lot of that depends on length of commute, etc.
In my experience, "progress" is defined in terms of how men experience the world.
Breast is best" but no paid leave and rigid work schedules force women to use expensive and unpleasant breast pumps and then fiddle around with all of the milk storage accoutrements rather than just pick up the baby and feed her when she's hungry.
The arguments by Manchin and some Republicans against the extended child tax credit..that only "working" parents deserve this support--this assumes that caring for your own young children is not valid "work" and if that is "all" you are doing, you are a lazy moocher.
Expecting women to spend literally decades of their lives dosing themselves with hormones in order to control their fertility. I am all for women being able to plan their families, but why is it that we are still relying on a method invented 75 years ago to do so?
Combat roles are now open to women. Yay? I mean....that is messed up. Now we can experience the trauma of battle too!
I could go on, but I'm sure others can add to this rant. :)
"We want better options for both men and women. Progress can look less like 50-50 representation and more like neither men nor women participating in a warped culture."
This is niche, but as someone who suspects both that men are, on average, "naturally" more interested in STEMlordism (being the next Feynman, etc) than women are *and* that women's full STEM talent has yet to be tapped, I don't consider it "progress", exactly, for gifted and talented women in math and science to slot themselves into a guy's PhD schedule.
Those concerned (or at least concern-trolling) that our boys are being left behind in an increasingly "feminized" early-education environment often concede that girls tend to develop earlier academically than boys do. They see trying to give girls and boys the same kind of education as unfair to the young men those boys will become. I say, though, it's also less-than-ideal for the talented girls.
I do not think we should consider it unfair to boys to accelerate talented girls' academic development more than boys' in the early years. After all, the talented, interested boys do tend to catch up later anyhow — and are unlikely to take time off later to bear children.
While I'm not wild about the idea of throwing a 15- or 16-year-old girl into our current typical college social environment simply because she already took the opportunity offered her to master multivariate calculus, I think it would also help, anyhow, if college became less about a life-stage than an educational stage (for those who benefit from it — not everyone will).
The whole progression of prep-school (or its well-zoned public-school equivalent) to college to (maybe) graduate school was developed for the social elite of an earlier era, anyhow. While I expect there'll always be a place for the "failsons" of the wealthy to cross-subsidize the less-wealthy interested and talented in higher education, the life-stage homogeneity we've come to expect of college could probably stand to die in favor of recognizing aptitude for differing subjects peaks at differing times, and integrates with differing gender roles differently.
does this equate to putting (allowing?) women on the front lines in combat situations? should men - or anyone - be there? but, if men or there, in a just society, i believe women should be there too. war certainly strikes me as evidence of toxic masculinity. but, it's also a very human occurrence. do women belong there on the front lines, shoulder to shoulder with men?
I'm a progressive Catholic mom of 12 year old daughter. Looking for smart, thoughtful theological reflection on sexuality to pass on to my daughter, and theology of the body seems limited. I like how you think, your willingness to take marriage and family off a pedestal, your belief that women shouldn't seek equality in a broken system. Help! How do I talk to my daughter about pleasure, sex, motherhood in a way that honors herself and the other, leaves space for contribution instead of or in addition to motherhood, honors single and gay people