Q2: Growing up in a university town, I was always extremely aware of a general disdain towards childbearing among highly educated people. But my parents served as a counterbalance to that milieu. My mom regretted prioritizing achievement over family because when she finally decided she did want children at the age of 32, she suffered infertility for several years. Thankfully, God opened her womb and gave her five kids between the ages of 35 and 42. She prizes her children infinitely more than her PhD. In fact, she couldn't care less about her world-class education in piano performance. That's quite a powerful testimony.
Despite her example, I have struggled to honor motherhood. It doesn't seem "cool" or prestigious to bear and raise kids in a world that celebrates women for being authors and engineers. But I realized a few years back that when Scripture describes heavenly treasure, it's talking about human souls. That's been good reminder to me that parenthood is God's work and will teach my heart to love what he loves.
Edit: For context, I married during college at 21, was intending to get a PhD in German Lit, got sidetracked, and had my baby daughter at 24! I want to have several more so we can galumph about, kicking up dustclouds wherever we go, like the joyful tribe I remember from my childhood. (On that note, I wonder how much people forgo growing their families due to bad childhood experiences, like domestic abuse or poverty or parental depression.)
This is beautiful! And that last part is a great question. I am also VERY intrigued by how women are particularly influenced by their own mother's decisions in the dance of family, career, children. (Lots of personal factors and circumstances go into this, I realize!) But from what I've noticed, there are many women (and men) who course-correct in one way or the other as they gain perspective over time as their parent's decisions played out.
For example, my husband is an only child and was more than willing to have multiple kids (we have three little boys currently.) As for myself, I'm one of four. My mom was a registered nurse who stayed home with us, and worked very part-time nights in a nursing home to cover tuition costs and keep up some work experience, but only when we were older. I admired that, and more so as I've learned what other's experiences were in their childhood, and with their mom.
(Guess I'm answering question #2 here now)
I grew up in (non-creepy-or-controlling, pretty healthy) conservative Christian circles and through college. Having kids appealed to me as pretty normal and enjoyable, a fact of life I was eager to experience. My husband and I married right before my 27th birthday (it's a long story, but was also a rapid-fast experience lol) so we would have had kids sooner had we been able to meet and marry earlier! But alas, having 3 kids in 3 years soon afterwards has been a good compromise. :)
Love this comment Haley, and love seeing your name here, as I follow your writing too! I think we are similar in that my husband and I married at 28/29, long story that ended fast, and had what is now 6 babies in 8.5 years! Had to make up for lost time, haha. Anyway, I think about this a lot too. I am a nurse and I have worked increasingly less (decreasingly?) with each baby. I am 3.5 month postpartum with my sixth and am getting to the point where I may actually stop working altogether for a few years, but one question in my mind is whether or not that will affect my children, especially my daughters' perception of what they are capable of in the future. I'd like to be able to model healthy, attentive working-momness (and we also homeschool-ish-- my big kids go to cottage school currently), but also I want them to know it's totally ok to be at home with children without a single side project. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!
Kudos to you on keeping up the work with you big family! I'm so impressed. haha
That last part - I think about that a lot, personally and generally. I never felt constrained to become one binary type of "mom", and my parents were really good about just letting us kids develop and choose our paths, encouraging our strengths, guiding us with wisdom as needed.
So whether a mom is modeling working outside the home full or part time, doing some other work while raising kids, or dedicated to the work of the home entirely... I think it matters less than how we talk about the value of work itself, and why we're doing it. Combine that with knowledge of ourselves, we are *free* to choose the best choice for ourselves and our families — and the kids eventually for themselves.
I've seen daughters of working moms grow up to be homeschool moms, and homeschool moms raise girls who choose any number of paths similar or different. Freely choosing the good path for the particular person, in their particular family, requires some wisdom. (For the record, I am talking to myself here, as this is always in the back of my mind in our own family haha)
This sub-thread is really reminding me of Neha Ruch, who created and runs Mother Untitled. I intersect with her work on socials (cf Q1 of this post), but I believe she's been building out a broader community platform too. Her main thesis, per her website, is " to update the perception of stay-at-home motherhood in America, infusing it with ambition, dignity, growth, and potential". https://www.motheruntitled.com
This is AMAZING. I'll be checking this out as I continue to go through my existential and practical angst about the future of my mothering. haha
And, Ivana Greco at The Home Front has been doing a series of interviews which been an interesting way to learn from other women: https://thehomefront.substack.com/archive
Wow, go you! 3 kids in 3 years, and not only that but they're boys. Have you read the book "Habits of the Household: Practicing the Story of God in Everyday Family Rhythms?" I'd recommend it to anyone, but you might find it particularly relatable because the author uses life with his four boys to illustrate his points.
In regard to question #2, I grew up in conservative Christian homeschooling circles, so I just assumed having children was what everyone did (I have a great aunt who didn't marry or have children, but somehow that didn't factor in for me). I kind of admired very large families, although I don't think I actually aspired to 7+ children myself, and always assumed I would go to college, get married at 22ish, and then homeschool my 4ish kids. But things didn't work out the way I thought, because I didn't have an opportunity to get married until I was almost 33. My family preferences haven't changed much, but I realize I might have more trouble with childbearing than would have been the case if I could have married younger. (We recently lost our first child to miscarriage; prayers appreciated.) I feel like God has been repeatedly reminding me that I only have a limited amount of control over things like family size. Children are gifts, not something you can mechanistically control!
One thing that confuses me a little is that my younger siblings are all over the map on fertility preferences--two frequently talk as though they aren't interested in having children at all. I feel like personal temperament is as much of a reason as anything environmental, in their case.
One way that happens, in my experience, is in large families. I am the eldest of six. My youngest sibling essentially grew up in a different family. My parents were different with him as they matured, his own sibling dynamics were different (when I grew up, there was always a new baby - when he grew up, there was always someone moving out), I knew my grandparents and he didn't, etc.
Question number #2 really resonates because I postponed having kids, and have since come to partially regret it. I think I got my views about family life at the time from what I thought of as a certain type of cosmopolitan media. What I'm talking about is everything from the New Yorker to mid career Woody Allen movies, to (old) Gawker, to Seinfeld and Friends etc. There's this underlying ethos of an urbane person that exists in a rarified world basically lacking in kids. I wasn't from that world, but as a kid and young adult, longed to be a part of it. Eventually I stopped caring, but I didn't end up having my first kid until 36, which is now proving to be a limit on the size of a family we can realistically have.
Thank you for frankly sharing about this effect of that - can I call it an appealing image? - of "what an urbane person is like" coming from the media you were taking in as a kid / young adult!
There are so many stages of life I wish I could have twice as long in! Childhood, (not high school), college, (not single adulthood), married with no kids, having a baby, only having one kid, only having two kids, having small children, and probably more stages to come. I didn't get the full Seinfeld experience but I'd have been happy to add that in there as well. I can see the appeal.
Let's all live twice as long, ok?
Failing that, I think more awareness that having kids is the happiest thing in most people's lives, and that the years in which to get that started are limited, would help people plan better.
1. I've chosen to work to make Facebook beautiful. I deliberately cultivate and curate, seeking out art and poetry and interesting things to share. And people notice and comment on it. I still spend far more time online than is good for me, but at least I'm trying to make a difference.
2. I've always wanted to have marriage and kids. Even when I was in high school and everyone else was career focused. I knew I was supposed to have a career goal so I always said teacher. But really I wanted a career that would be compatible with a family. Looking around in college I saw female professors who had kids and who made it work-- students babysitting while they taught. I assumed that would be the career for me. But my idea of a job was always something that would fit around the children I assumed I'd have. My mom was a computer programmer and had four kids so it just never occurred to me that there was a conflict. I think my parents are still a bit bemused that I chose homemaking and homeschooling over a job, but it works for me.
A heavyset Latino pastor who gleefully loved to crack jokes and to laugh, and who also would get very personal and serious about peoples' commitment to Jesus in every sermon... he settled the question about WHETHER to have kids! One week, he was preaching, and I think just as a tangential side note, he said, "If you get married, you know, you are definitely* supposed to have children." (paraphrasing, and leaving out some of the negative declaration about marrying while planning to not have children.) And I was like "Oh! Okay, then." Direct and authoritative. So that was settled in about 1 sentence.
That said, my Christian fellowship definitely had the assumption having kids was good, and the influence of that (and my husband's choice) would have been more than enough in the end. Just... it's memorable that I had that experience in a sermon which very much made me go, "Okay, that's settled. I hadn't thought about that."
When I was a teenager, I had snottily declared, "I'm not going to get married until after I get my PhD!" This is funnier in context, because I lived in a very rural, redneck place: I was saying that to people who would see that as weird; some maybe wouldn't know what I was talking about. But I was dramatically shaped by my parents'/Dad's wishes for me, which I perceived to be, in order: follow in the footsteps of famous scientists and mathematicians, have the "quiet" career of being a professor that my dad imagined he'd missed out on because he didn't "hit the books" hard enough in college, (LOL! I dodged that bullet! That said, my dad was born in 1942, and his conception of the lives of the professors who taught him before he dropped out of college was that "they had it made," they had "put in their time" getting educational credentials and tenure and could now "kick back" and coast.) have a career where I make lots of money, followed by "definitely at least be financially self-sufficient." So my decision to get married right after Undergrad (like 2 days after graduation!) could be its own whole story as well.
The question of WHEN to have kids was settled by the summer I did children's church. I taught kids who were 3-6 years old. So I got the benefit of "Oh! Kids start to become interesting and you can really talk to them when they are 2 or 3... I always thought it didn't happen until they were like 5!" BUT the other end of it was I was teaching through some of the story arcs of the Old Testament; I remembered looking at my husband one day when we were at home and telling him, "It seems... to me... that it's saying that there's like two or three main ways of changing the world: having kids, praying, or doing one small action in faith." (Abraham and Sarah were in mind for the first one, and the slave-girl who served Naaman's wife for that last one.)
* Obvious intending caveats for extreme health circumstances, infertility, old age, etc.
I'm 23 and just got married last month, so the question about when to have kids/how many has come up frequently. I always grew up wanting a large family. I'm the oldest of 4 siblings (2 adopted, 2 bio) and my parents always emphasized how much they loved our family structure. They both were/are teachers and were known to say they liked working with kids more than adults. As a result, I always felt like children were great and it was good to have many of them if one could (especially because my mom struggled with infertility and multiple losses). Even though I grew up Christian, I never heard anyone talk about having kids as anything other than a personal choice/preference. From my young vantage point, it seemed we rejoiced when children were conceived and born, but mostly because we assumed it was an answer to prayer for the parents - not because there was something intrinsically important and good about children.
Recently, however, I've been made to feel a bit naive for wanting 4! At my wedding shower with my husband's family, we played a version of the newlywed game where one of the questions was how many kids we thought the other wanted. He correctly guessed 4 for me, and many of his relatives were shocked! It was met with "we'll see about that!" and "you might change your mind after 2, isn't that right, [sister-in-law very much in the weeds with a 2 year old and newborn!]" What struck me was that the women making these comments were the sisters in a set of 4 siblings around whom the entire family revolves! They always talk about how important family is to them, and my husband has lots of cousins who have been the highlight of his years growing up. Part of why I would love a large family is the ability to give my own children what theirs had - a large network of aunts, uncles, and cousins.
I don't doubt that raising kids is very hard work, perhaps the hardest work there is, but I'm realizing more and more how much my own family's pro-child culture has made me feel more ready to have more kids earlier than most of my friends/extended family.
That pro-child culture where kids are normal and accepted as intrinsically good (not a trophy or something owed to the parents) certainly makes a difference.
As for your comment about the people from a large family making weird comments about having multiple kids... Ooooof. I've noticed that too. Or similarly, peers of mine who are always going on about how much they LOVE having a few or several siblings and their whole family, but then somehow refuse kids themselves? As if their amazing siblings and family life just came out of nowhere with no one giving birth to them. lol
I was talking with someone else on substack recently about her experience with 5 children, the older of which are so helpful now! And how a lot of parents truly do get overwhelmed and so focused in on the NOW of what having littles is like that they forget that kids grow up and aren't so needy in the same ways. They can help as they mature! So being overwhelmed with, say, 3 kids doesn't mean you always will. Those 3 (or more) will grow up and become more capable!
(For example: It's a LOT having a 4 year old, 3 year old, and 1 year old haha - but I'm not going to say "Having 3 kids is overwhelming, period!")
A lot of people find a groove, their older ones cross a "helpful and contributing" threshold, and find adding more kids later is actually.... kind of great. :)
Recognizing "the NOW of... having littles" as a stage, and not a permanent state, is probably one good way to sum up my answer to Q2, about the voices and experiences that shaped my context about having children. My parents were always clear about their affection for the baby stages-- the cuddles, the board books, the discoveries and milestones-- while also pairing it with the observation that not all parents felt the same. For example, my dad would contrast his perspective with that of a friend (of a similar age, but who had children later), noting that Friend was exhausted and demoralized by his slog through the era of diapers, tantrums, dangers, and general baby-and-toddler fog. But when Friend's kids got bigger, and started to enjoy sports and books and travel and such, he came into his own as a dad and really thrived.
So perhaps that awareness of the specificity of each stage, and and also its transience, was a framing factor for what I expected out of parenthood, and also one of the reasons I could look forward to it; knowing that nothing is forever; babies and children and big kids are always growing and changing; it's okay to enjoy some seasons better than others because each of us is a whole person with preferences and gifts that will match some seasons of parenting better than others; and there wasn't (in my received experience) any one single script or narrative of how parenthood was "supposed" to go. I could frame my expectations based on what I'd seen my parents value, and how they raised my siblings and me; and it was also such a gift to hear them reflect out loud about *being* parents, and all that it entails.
On the first question, I’ve heavily gamed my Facebook algorithm, and so appreciate the content it generally shows me. But lately I’ve noticed many more TikTok-like videos in my feed, not all of which are the type of positive, informative content I’ve deliberately liked or intended to watch. It takes constant vigilance to not get sucked into “bridezilla” videos or “you won’t believe what my evil boss did” content. I don’t think the issue is algorithms per se, but that they optimize for attention regardless of whether it’s good or healthy. Profit prioritized over well being is not the way any business should run.
On Q2, my liberal counter cultural parents were always enthusiastically pro grandkid, insisting that if I got pregnant young they would *loooove* to help. I also loved the idea of a big family probably in part because of a Boxcar Children childhood obsession and because my wonderful elementary school teacher had nine kids (two of whom also taught us). She was a saint - all kindness and careful attention to what kids needed and hoped for.
But those vague hopes quickly ran up against the reality of having kids in a society that charges an astronomical amount for healthcare, housing and childcare. That knowledge, running the math during and after college, meant I decided to wait and reset my child bearing goals - including, major factor - choosing a partner who did not want a large family. I think part of this calculation was also informed by a fear that having a kid young would mean being stuck: shutting down so many different possible futures, locking in a partner, eliminating opportunities to grow and shift my career. Now I’m 37, have one delightful kid, and would love to have one more. I don’t regret waiting! And after they’re grown I’m hoping to foster.
I would tell college students today that we should be fighting for so much more than the CTC. That we can and should craft a society that genuinely cares about kids and families by reducing the strain on women to figure it all out in an expensive patchwork system. That it’s true that right now having kids is *so* much harder than it should be, and that it is incompatible in many cases with building the life you might want to live. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
Martha, same, on gaming the FB algorithm. One thing I try to do is to X out of pretty much any and every ad, which does seem to baffle the algorithm, and it means I see just a bananas range of attempts to target my interests. Everything from a portable pen for effectively containing feral hogs, to insurance policies for tattoo parlor owners, to hair- and skincare products for a huge range of ethnicities, etc... all that to say, for products way outside my everyday lived experience. Maybe this is an example of "deliberate design", to Leah's Q1-- in a way, I'm actively choosing to avoid targeted ads that would in fact be tempting or distracting for me personally, and so maybe it's easier to tune them out altogether. Which makes literal and metaphorical "room" on my feeds for the things I do care about seeing when I log on.
I don't use Facebook much these days - I disliked how often I was composing statuses in my head - but I do use it to check in with people occasionally. I have a browser plugin that allows me to access groups and search for a specific person's feed, but doesn't show the timeline at all. I'm grateful to the friend who introduced me to that plugin, as my FB use is now almost all choice rather than algorithm, and my time using it is drastically reduced as a result.
Can you share the name of the plug-in? I used Facebook almost exclusively for local giveaways and events but recent changes have made it very glitchy and annoying (why am I seeing 13 silly memes while checking to see if anyone is giving away sheets?)
I ran across this piece recently on honoring mothers, and I wonder how motherhood would be perceived differently if our society followed what this author envisions. (it's by Rachel Lu. The hook for the piece is the Dobbs leak, so that's a bit dated, but the rest of the piece is really valuable.)
I have been struggling to figure out how to turn off my phone and not miss important things. I thought about it and realized most notifications are texts and people will call if it's something really important, so I turned all my texts and WhatsApp threads to silent but left the ringer on. Except my husband, whose texts I do want to read and respond to right away - I found a setting where all texts are silent except his. And if someone calls, I'll hear it.
Then when I have actually dedicated time, I can go back and read and respond to the other texts, instead of sneaking them in when my toddler's back is turned. If I read them, I will think about them, and not really pay attention to the people I'm with. If I don't read them, I can not be distracted from the people with me.
This was only a few days ago, but so far it's working really well.
1: Several years ago...(oddly enough in the aftermath that was the 2016 election/dumpster fire) I backed away from Facebook and Instagram. I have never really looked back. I do miss seeing pictures of friends kids, but everything that I was seeing was less pictures from friends and more toxic political "gotchas" and it was sickening. A couple years ago, I did the same thing with Twitter/X, and while I do miss talking with friends I made on that platform, I was really worn out from constantly resetting my account to "newest posts" versus "top posts". I am much happier and a lot less annoyed and irritated.
2: Oh this is one hits: I became Catholic in college, but my family of Origin is at best athiest-agnostic. I was *supposed* to go to college get a degree and become some big "Women's libber" (my mother's words about what my dad wanted for me) with a career and no need for a husband or kids. After all there are too many people on the earth anyway /s. When I chose to get married 3.5 mths after I graduated from college, my dad, just before we walked down the aisle, said, "Now don't do anything stupid like get pregnant right away."
I got pregnant 6 weeks later. Discovered it a bit late (long story) and was 9 weeks by the time we told my parents who spent 2 hours on the phone berating me for being so irresponsible.
After a rough pregnancy that ended at 34w6day due to Toxemia, I came home with a 4lb13oz baby boy, postpartum depression, and the decision to not have any more children.
And God giggled.
That scrawny boy is now 22 and 5'11" and has 9 siblings... Each of whom are loved by their grandparents, but each of their pregnancies was met with hostility both from my parents who didn't want me to be "just a mom" (after #8 was announced) and my "friends" who claimed they wanted me to know that I "was more than just a uterus" (after #3, 4, 5, and 6). Or one friend who joked about using butter knife to castrate my husband because I shouldn't be made to have anymore kids. (That was after #4)
I had to spend years coming to terms with 1: letting down the people who had different expectations for my life and 2: that I was not in nearly as much control over it as I thought I was. And that's not only okay, but is truly a wonderful thing.
I'm just going to gleefully point out--"They aren't nearly as in control over your life as they thought they were, (???) either!" (I'm slightly mortified by the friends' comments. And the two hours of haranguing over the phone. And the "Now don't do anything stupid...")
🤣😂 You are not wrong! They had a lot of trouble accepting that as well. Most of the friends and I have long-since parted ways. And I am happy to report that with #10, my parents were fairly accepting, comparatively speaking.
Hey! Do you have ways you'd dream to talking to those friends effectively? Like how to usefully say something to try to get them to see what you see, or at least how their careless words were little knives? (I've been known to obsess over how to respond to harsh words--and in recent years, ACTUALLY finding ways to engage charitably, sometimes. Though not necessarily in the exact moment!)
Now I'm gonna tell you one that happened with me... When I was pregnant with my younger son, my dad... with a kind, encouraging tone of voice but not in a connected-to-reality way, said to me, "Have you guys ever thought of going back to school... of going to grad school?" I actually went "Dad! You can't actually have it all! What do you want me to do, put them in daycare all day?" (Note: A big part of the reason I chose this specific argument was because I knew my Dad's values would actually accept it. Like, if confronted with a vision of the future where "In order to do grad school, Vikki puts her kids in Daycare/Childcare a lot," he would realize his own view of that is, "Well, no, I don't actually think that's good." But he wouldn't have any plan for how to reconcile "prestigious higher education for my daughter is good" with "my daughter being present as a mom for her kids in the home all day is good" - just wanted "finite time resources" to not be a real constraint humans have to live within. It came out passionately because I myself wanted to be present with my kids, I knew my hubbie wanted me to, and we were sure of that.)
That's amazing! The disconnect is so frustrating, though it sounds like your dad was pretty understanding once confronted with the logic of the situation.
To answer your initial questions. I think about my friends and how their words affected me (there were many other words and comments over the years before I finally cut ties). And I do acknowledge that there was, at least a little, true concern in what they were expressing (I had been in the hospital for a week before I had my first because of the Toxemia). But! At some point I realized, even and maybe especially for my friends, their comments reflected that they no longer knew who I was, and maybe never really knew. They assumed that I was miserable or that I was somehow being forced into doing something (having children, more than 1, staying home, homeschooling, stemming all the way back to becoming Catholic) that I didn't want to do. No matter what I said or did to demonstrate I was not only fine, but joyful and content with this life, they didn't believe. And every venting or complaint I had about a specific situation or specific instance was taken as proof that I was being forced or coerced. I just stopped sharing with them.
If I could tell them anything now it would be that I'm sorry I had to walk away, but when I realized how little they thought of me and my abilities to do anything without undue influence from others (in their eyes, my husband, who they were supposed to be friends with as well), well, how do I confront that? It's almost like becoming Catholic - embracing Christ - meant a radical (if not slow) transformation of my life and what is important. Who would have guessed???? Hah!
I so appreciate you sharing your story. And I'm so glad you have joy and contentment in your life, it's a beautiful thing.
If you don't mind digging into a hard conversation, I'd love to hear your perspective on this one. I know one woman who has many children (and is continuing to have children) with very little spacing (and what little spacing there is has been due to miscarriages). She insists she's happy and that this is God's plan for her, but I do wish she and her husband would learn about natural family planning and the longterm physical effects of a lack of spacing on mother and children. They live a very traditional life (totally fine!), where he decides when they have sex (not fine - he insists that sex is a husband's right, doesn't believe in marital rape, etc). I find both of their current insistence that God is planning their family... boggling, given that her husband is actively getting her pregnant with barely a break in between.
So.. questions for you: What made you open, or what would have made you open to NFP? What could have made the conversation better, whether it happened or not? And is there an appropriate way for a friend to talk to the couple in this instance?
Let me begin by answering your questions: Initially, NFP was never discussed. In fact after my oldest was born, due to some extremely minor medical issue, it was recommended by my obgyn to go on the birth control pill and I was too young, naive, and unaware to look for any alternatives. When I finally went off the pill completely 1 yr after my third was born, it was more because it was making me crazy anxious. I was still learning what it meant for me to embrace this Catholic faith I had joined 9 years earlier. The next four children are all on average about 20months apart. In the middle of all of that chaos, we decided to look into NFP. I settled on the Creighton method for various reasons. And then moved onto the Marquette Method (essentially combining Creighton with a fertility monitor). Long story short, our laziness, impatience, perfectionism, passion, and my (recently diagnosed) ADHD contributed to inaccurate charting and a "God's will be done." attitude. So our seemingly lack of NFP stems mostly from being introduced to NFP later in our marriage, user-error, and a more nonchalant attitude toward planning in general. Even when I tried to be as thorough and aware of cycles and charting, and abstain for often more than what was required...well #6&7 surprised us.
I fully acknowledge that I have been fortunate to have had relatively easy pregnancies, labors and deliveries (aside from the first), which makes it much easier to "throw caution to the wind". I also fully acknowledge that I have a wonderful husband who respects and supports me in everything - and while we have fallen mainly into "traditional roles", he used to do most of the cooking before his schedule became so crazy, he does most of the laundry, and he cleans the bathrooms (because, eeeewwww, 7 boys live here - not counting him) among many other things like fixing the endless amount of things that a family this big, with this many boys, inevitably break.
To address the situation you brought up, I think first it's good to be cognizant that not every woman is going to experience ill effects from seemingly back-to-back pregnancies. Some women will be able to handle the physical and even mental load of several pregnancies in a row in a short amount of time, and for the most part will be good with it. I am not saying this is the case that you have mentioned here, but it would be wrong to assume that every woman will have problems with it in the same way that it would be wrong to assume every woman will never have problems with it. To go along with this, without knowing the couple and situation in question, in detail, it would be a mistake to assume that the husband is actively and intentionally trying to get and keep his wife pregnant. Without he himself using some form of NFP, without her help, he would have next to nil idea about when she is actively fertile. It may be that they are super fertile, or he may just sense that when he is super attracted to her she must be fertile and therefore takes every opportunity. (Note this last part could and may very well be a problem, but it is a separate problem from the idea of him intentionally trying to keep her pregnant without a break.)
All of this being said, I have run into and spoken with people as you describe and unfortunately I have not figured out what to say. It is somewhat disconcerting to see and hear what is ultimately a misconstruing of both Jesus and St. Paul in order to justify one's own pride and selfishness. Perhaps encouraging or even just introducing them to the NFP instructors within the diocese/parish/area (if you know them the instructors). If they're active in their parish encourage them to do things together where they seek out other couples in places where some of these topics might come up and pray that fruitful conversation can be borne. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a woman will not be able to say anything, no matter how true it may be, that a man, who exhibits what you describe above will believe or even be willing to hear. Perhaps if another man can calmly present a logical correction, maybe, but even then...the Holy Spirit is your best bet. And making sure that the woman involved always knows that you will be a willing listener, without judgement, if that time should arise. (I know you know this, but it's worth repeating!)
Q1 This is something that is constantly on my mind. I think we are offered endless choices in the modern age, and it is just simply crushing. Choices are great, but the degree to which we can choose almost everything now is unnatural, and I think really affects us more than we know. As a silly example, today I read the ingredients on 6 different brands of hummus to see which one had the best ingredients. I *like* being able to choose, but it does add heft to our minds to have to consider so much. So in that sense, algorithms certainly make sense. In order to get away from algorithms in our life though, I have done a few things. Personally, getting off social media was a life-changing move; completely bypassing that particular algorithm has freed up brain space. For my kids, we have slowly gotten rid of all streaming services and now only have DVDs. It definitely takes time to flip through the book and choose, but I think it's healthier than being bombarded with all the personalized suggestions on Netflix, etc. Anyway, this was really interesting! Thanks for your writing!
I got married at 22 and we welcomed our first baby before our first anniversary. The biggest factor by far was that my husband and I both wanted children and desired to structure our lives around marriage and children first. However, it helped that we saw other couples in their 20s from our parish having children. Otherwise in our large metropolis, it’s quite common to wait until one’s 30s to have children, so at professional events, young adult events, and otherwise in our social circle we didn’t see many other examples of people having children early in their marriage or early in their working ages.
I think if I had been more “plugged in” to parenting-related social groups I might have felt more apprehensive. I didn’t have a reason to join local mom-specific groups until my oldest was of an age to do rec center swim lessons. Once I did, I became much more aware of the different financial and career standards for “ready” to have kids or a “good enough” childhood. I don’t want to downplay the expense of children, because there’s a baseline cost of eg food, medical care, and childcare time, but I’ve seen how a subjective assessment of individual comfort levels with having children can be expressed as a universal minimum.
YES ----> "I don’t want to downplay the expense of children, because there’s a baseline cost of eg food, medical care, and childcare time, but I’ve seen how a subjective assessment of individual comfort levels with having children can be expressed as a universal minimum."
I know other moms in my town here who get by on SO much less than the cultural living standard (maybe even less than mine, which is already well below average lol) because their families value things differently, and structured their lives and expectations accordingly.
And I'm with you on the encouraging examples of a church setting. I've mostly been in circles where having kids is the norm, a lot of fun, intrinsically good, and not unusual to start in your early twenties if possible, or soon after getting married. It's culture shock being surrounded by people who don't take that approach, for whatever reason. Like the stories my husband tells me of people at work, and how they talk about these things! Wild.
Claire, this rings true for me, too. I had my first baby a few years later than my heart and hopes might otherwise have planned; and in my frame of reference, in which my parents married right after college and had their first two babies in their mid-twenties, this registered for me as "late" (at least a little). However, when my oldest entered preschool and I started seeing other parents around at drop-off, pick-up, and school events, I suddenly felt *much younger*, because I had in fact started my family in my twenties, and so many of these urban, professional, more affluent parent neighbors were easily ten years older than me, or more, and had waited longer. And so I hadn't expected to (or prepared for how to) navigate that social aspect of it, because I hadn't perceived myself as a "young" parent until finding myself in that context. At the same time (and to Leah's Q2), because of the family and community environment in which I was raised, I *did* feel very confident and centered going into parenthood, rather more so than some of these preschool-parent peers.
And thus somehow I was both "younger" and "more experienced" all at once, in those circles-- it gave me occasion to realize how much more equipped I came, so to speak, by prior exposure to little ones, and by the general mindset and practical approaches that I'd absorbed along the way, plus the default expectation that yes, family life is nice, and yes, I'd want to raise a family someday.
Q2 - When I was in college I wanted to have kids in a "someday" sort of way. I just thought of it as part of the social script; I'd get married after college (presumably to my then-boyfriend) and we'd have kids, because that's what you do, particularly when you're both cradle Catholics at a Catholic university! But even when we were dating I remember thinking, "Hmm, there are certain ways I hope our children are not like him." That relationship ended and when I met my husband my thinking completely changed; suddenly I wanted to have HIS kids. I knew if my sons grew up to be like him, that would be a good thing, and I wanted him to be the father of my daughters. That was a big indicator that we should get married! It also helped that he was very clear about wanting to have children from the beginning of our relationship, so that really brought it from a "someday" scenario to "this is something we are both desirous of and planning for."
To answer question 2 - As a child my parents told me constantly that having children was a mistake and it only led to misery. As I reached my teens/twenties this narrative joined the cultural narrative that having children was a burden on women, to be free and happy you should be childless, etc. In university and graduate school this sentiment was even louder, particularly in the leftist circles in which I ran. There was also the pressure to not add to overpopulation or burden the environment, etc. It was a fairly all-encompassing, so much so that when the women's studies professor announced she was having a baby the program was shocked. I feel very sorry now looking back that so many of us young women and men had that perspective drummed into us. It is such a shame.
I TRY to consciously choose away from the "nudge," but the nudge is not always perceived.
As far as children, my wife and I were simply open to the reality that children could result from matrimonial union. That openness was a conscious choice, to refuse all forms of artificial birth control. Cultural voices that insisted on following the clarion call of "free sex" were noticed but disregarded.
I guess the primary voice for this was the Catholic Church itself, which then led to further reading that supported the logic behind the Church's position.
Q2: I attended an engineering school and got a degree in engineering. During my time in college, almost none of my female peers talked about wanting to have children. Most talked about children as expensive and they didn't seem to see a correlation between childbearing and happiness. My female professors were mothers but rarely talked about it, instead they placed a big emphasis on encouraging young women to break any ceiling in STEM fields. I remember reading Jordan Peterson early on and thinking he made a very compelling case that women should not dismiss motherhood or their maternal instinct so easily. At the same time, I had grown up in a Christian ecumenical group that was way more sympathetic towards family life and children. However, despite the fact that the majority of the people in the group were Catholic, contraception was widely accepted and even encouraged. Big families (more than 3 kids) were uncommon. The end result was that in my early twenties my approach to children was mostly pragmatical: it was in my best interest to consider having children or at least not dismiss it as relevant to my happiness but never "too many kids" as that was not "responsible". These days I'm very grateful that I don't think about children in that way anymore :)
Q2: Growing up in a university town, I was always extremely aware of a general disdain towards childbearing among highly educated people. But my parents served as a counterbalance to that milieu. My mom regretted prioritizing achievement over family because when she finally decided she did want children at the age of 32, she suffered infertility for several years. Thankfully, God opened her womb and gave her five kids between the ages of 35 and 42. She prizes her children infinitely more than her PhD. In fact, she couldn't care less about her world-class education in piano performance. That's quite a powerful testimony.
Despite her example, I have struggled to honor motherhood. It doesn't seem "cool" or prestigious to bear and raise kids in a world that celebrates women for being authors and engineers. But I realized a few years back that when Scripture describes heavenly treasure, it's talking about human souls. That's been good reminder to me that parenthood is God's work and will teach my heart to love what he loves.
Edit: For context, I married during college at 21, was intending to get a PhD in German Lit, got sidetracked, and had my baby daughter at 24! I want to have several more so we can galumph about, kicking up dustclouds wherever we go, like the joyful tribe I remember from my childhood. (On that note, I wonder how much people forgo growing their families due to bad childhood experiences, like domestic abuse or poverty or parental depression.)
This is beautiful! And that last part is a great question. I am also VERY intrigued by how women are particularly influenced by their own mother's decisions in the dance of family, career, children. (Lots of personal factors and circumstances go into this, I realize!) But from what I've noticed, there are many women (and men) who course-correct in one way or the other as they gain perspective over time as their parent's decisions played out.
For example, my husband is an only child and was more than willing to have multiple kids (we have three little boys currently.) As for myself, I'm one of four. My mom was a registered nurse who stayed home with us, and worked very part-time nights in a nursing home to cover tuition costs and keep up some work experience, but only when we were older. I admired that, and more so as I've learned what other's experiences were in their childhood, and with their mom.
(Guess I'm answering question #2 here now)
I grew up in (non-creepy-or-controlling, pretty healthy) conservative Christian circles and through college. Having kids appealed to me as pretty normal and enjoyable, a fact of life I was eager to experience. My husband and I married right before my 27th birthday (it's a long story, but was also a rapid-fast experience lol) so we would have had kids sooner had we been able to meet and marry earlier! But alas, having 3 kids in 3 years soon afterwards has been a good compromise. :)
Love this comment Haley, and love seeing your name here, as I follow your writing too! I think we are similar in that my husband and I married at 28/29, long story that ended fast, and had what is now 6 babies in 8.5 years! Had to make up for lost time, haha. Anyway, I think about this a lot too. I am a nurse and I have worked increasingly less (decreasingly?) with each baby. I am 3.5 month postpartum with my sixth and am getting to the point where I may actually stop working altogether for a few years, but one question in my mind is whether or not that will affect my children, especially my daughters' perception of what they are capable of in the future. I'd like to be able to model healthy, attentive working-momness (and we also homeschool-ish-- my big kids go to cottage school currently), but also I want them to know it's totally ok to be at home with children without a single side project. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!
Kudos to you on keeping up the work with you big family! I'm so impressed. haha
That last part - I think about that a lot, personally and generally. I never felt constrained to become one binary type of "mom", and my parents were really good about just letting us kids develop and choose our paths, encouraging our strengths, guiding us with wisdom as needed.
So whether a mom is modeling working outside the home full or part time, doing some other work while raising kids, or dedicated to the work of the home entirely... I think it matters less than how we talk about the value of work itself, and why we're doing it. Combine that with knowledge of ourselves, we are *free* to choose the best choice for ourselves and our families — and the kids eventually for themselves.
I've seen daughters of working moms grow up to be homeschool moms, and homeschool moms raise girls who choose any number of paths similar or different. Freely choosing the good path for the particular person, in their particular family, requires some wisdom. (For the record, I am talking to myself here, as this is always in the back of my mind in our own family haha)
This sub-thread is really reminding me of Neha Ruch, who created and runs Mother Untitled. I intersect with her work on socials (cf Q1 of this post), but I believe she's been building out a broader community platform too. Her main thesis, per her website, is " to update the perception of stay-at-home motherhood in America, infusing it with ambition, dignity, growth, and potential". https://www.motheruntitled.com
This is AMAZING. I'll be checking this out as I continue to go through my existential and practical angst about the future of my mothering. haha
And, Ivana Greco at The Home Front has been doing a series of interviews which been an interesting way to learn from other women: https://thehomefront.substack.com/archive
Thanks for this rec, too!
Wow, go you! 3 kids in 3 years, and not only that but they're boys. Have you read the book "Habits of the Household: Practicing the Story of God in Everyday Family Rhythms?" I'd recommend it to anyone, but you might find it particularly relatable because the author uses life with his four boys to illustrate his points.
Yeah it's wild, would not recommend for everyone but we're making it work. haha
And we actually read that book together, and loved it! I've followed the author online and really appreciate his practical ideas and wisdom.
In regard to question #2, I grew up in conservative Christian homeschooling circles, so I just assumed having children was what everyone did (I have a great aunt who didn't marry or have children, but somehow that didn't factor in for me). I kind of admired very large families, although I don't think I actually aspired to 7+ children myself, and always assumed I would go to college, get married at 22ish, and then homeschool my 4ish kids. But things didn't work out the way I thought, because I didn't have an opportunity to get married until I was almost 33. My family preferences haven't changed much, but I realize I might have more trouble with childbearing than would have been the case if I could have married younger. (We recently lost our first child to miscarriage; prayers appreciated.) I feel like God has been repeatedly reminding me that I only have a limited amount of control over things like family size. Children are gifts, not something you can mechanistically control!
One thing that confuses me a little is that my younger siblings are all over the map on fertility preferences--two frequently talk as though they aren't interested in having children at all. I feel like personal temperament is as much of a reason as anything environmental, in their case.
This also fascinates me, how siblings can turn out wildly different in this way, from the same family.
One way that happens, in my experience, is in large families. I am the eldest of six. My youngest sibling essentially grew up in a different family. My parents were different with him as they matured, his own sibling dynamics were different (when I grew up, there was always a new baby - when he grew up, there was always someone moving out), I knew my grandparents and he didn't, etc.
Absolutely. I know some large families with exactly these kinds of dynamics.
I personally think of my own family and siblings (four of us not too far apart, and we turned out.... so different. haha)
Question number #2 really resonates because I postponed having kids, and have since come to partially regret it. I think I got my views about family life at the time from what I thought of as a certain type of cosmopolitan media. What I'm talking about is everything from the New Yorker to mid career Woody Allen movies, to (old) Gawker, to Seinfeld and Friends etc. There's this underlying ethos of an urbane person that exists in a rarified world basically lacking in kids. I wasn't from that world, but as a kid and young adult, longed to be a part of it. Eventually I stopped caring, but I didn't end up having my first kid until 36, which is now proving to be a limit on the size of a family we can realistically have.
Thank you for frankly sharing about this effect of that - can I call it an appealing image? - of "what an urbane person is like" coming from the media you were taking in as a kid / young adult!
There are so many stages of life I wish I could have twice as long in! Childhood, (not high school), college, (not single adulthood), married with no kids, having a baby, only having one kid, only having two kids, having small children, and probably more stages to come. I didn't get the full Seinfeld experience but I'd have been happy to add that in there as well. I can see the appeal.
Let's all live twice as long, ok?
Failing that, I think more awareness that having kids is the happiest thing in most people's lives, and that the years in which to get that started are limited, would help people plan better.
1. I've chosen to work to make Facebook beautiful. I deliberately cultivate and curate, seeking out art and poetry and interesting things to share. And people notice and comment on it. I still spend far more time online than is good for me, but at least I'm trying to make a difference.
2. I've always wanted to have marriage and kids. Even when I was in high school and everyone else was career focused. I knew I was supposed to have a career goal so I always said teacher. But really I wanted a career that would be compatible with a family. Looking around in college I saw female professors who had kids and who made it work-- students babysitting while they taught. I assumed that would be the career for me. But my idea of a job was always something that would fit around the children I assumed I'd have. My mom was a computer programmer and had four kids so it just never occurred to me that there was a conflict. I think my parents are still a bit bemused that I chose homemaking and homeschooling over a job, but it works for me.
You are a big highlight of facebook for me!
I identify compleeeetlyyy with answer number 2. haha
A heavyset Latino pastor who gleefully loved to crack jokes and to laugh, and who also would get very personal and serious about peoples' commitment to Jesus in every sermon... he settled the question about WHETHER to have kids! One week, he was preaching, and I think just as a tangential side note, he said, "If you get married, you know, you are definitely* supposed to have children." (paraphrasing, and leaving out some of the negative declaration about marrying while planning to not have children.) And I was like "Oh! Okay, then." Direct and authoritative. So that was settled in about 1 sentence.
That said, my Christian fellowship definitely had the assumption having kids was good, and the influence of that (and my husband's choice) would have been more than enough in the end. Just... it's memorable that I had that experience in a sermon which very much made me go, "Okay, that's settled. I hadn't thought about that."
When I was a teenager, I had snottily declared, "I'm not going to get married until after I get my PhD!" This is funnier in context, because I lived in a very rural, redneck place: I was saying that to people who would see that as weird; some maybe wouldn't know what I was talking about. But I was dramatically shaped by my parents'/Dad's wishes for me, which I perceived to be, in order: follow in the footsteps of famous scientists and mathematicians, have the "quiet" career of being a professor that my dad imagined he'd missed out on because he didn't "hit the books" hard enough in college, (LOL! I dodged that bullet! That said, my dad was born in 1942, and his conception of the lives of the professors who taught him before he dropped out of college was that "they had it made," they had "put in their time" getting educational credentials and tenure and could now "kick back" and coast.) have a career where I make lots of money, followed by "definitely at least be financially self-sufficient." So my decision to get married right after Undergrad (like 2 days after graduation!) could be its own whole story as well.
The question of WHEN to have kids was settled by the summer I did children's church. I taught kids who were 3-6 years old. So I got the benefit of "Oh! Kids start to become interesting and you can really talk to them when they are 2 or 3... I always thought it didn't happen until they were like 5!" BUT the other end of it was I was teaching through some of the story arcs of the Old Testament; I remembered looking at my husband one day when we were at home and telling him, "It seems... to me... that it's saying that there's like two or three main ways of changing the world: having kids, praying, or doing one small action in faith." (Abraham and Sarah were in mind for the first one, and the slave-girl who served Naaman's wife for that last one.)
* Obvious intending caveats for extreme health circumstances, infertility, old age, etc.
I'm 23 and just got married last month, so the question about when to have kids/how many has come up frequently. I always grew up wanting a large family. I'm the oldest of 4 siblings (2 adopted, 2 bio) and my parents always emphasized how much they loved our family structure. They both were/are teachers and were known to say they liked working with kids more than adults. As a result, I always felt like children were great and it was good to have many of them if one could (especially because my mom struggled with infertility and multiple losses). Even though I grew up Christian, I never heard anyone talk about having kids as anything other than a personal choice/preference. From my young vantage point, it seemed we rejoiced when children were conceived and born, but mostly because we assumed it was an answer to prayer for the parents - not because there was something intrinsically important and good about children.
Recently, however, I've been made to feel a bit naive for wanting 4! At my wedding shower with my husband's family, we played a version of the newlywed game where one of the questions was how many kids we thought the other wanted. He correctly guessed 4 for me, and many of his relatives were shocked! It was met with "we'll see about that!" and "you might change your mind after 2, isn't that right, [sister-in-law very much in the weeds with a 2 year old and newborn!]" What struck me was that the women making these comments were the sisters in a set of 4 siblings around whom the entire family revolves! They always talk about how important family is to them, and my husband has lots of cousins who have been the highlight of his years growing up. Part of why I would love a large family is the ability to give my own children what theirs had - a large network of aunts, uncles, and cousins.
I don't doubt that raising kids is very hard work, perhaps the hardest work there is, but I'm realizing more and more how much my own family's pro-child culture has made me feel more ready to have more kids earlier than most of my friends/extended family.
That pro-child culture where kids are normal and accepted as intrinsically good (not a trophy or something owed to the parents) certainly makes a difference.
As for your comment about the people from a large family making weird comments about having multiple kids... Ooooof. I've noticed that too. Or similarly, peers of mine who are always going on about how much they LOVE having a few or several siblings and their whole family, but then somehow refuse kids themselves? As if their amazing siblings and family life just came out of nowhere with no one giving birth to them. lol
I was talking with someone else on substack recently about her experience with 5 children, the older of which are so helpful now! And how a lot of parents truly do get overwhelmed and so focused in on the NOW of what having littles is like that they forget that kids grow up and aren't so needy in the same ways. They can help as they mature! So being overwhelmed with, say, 3 kids doesn't mean you always will. Those 3 (or more) will grow up and become more capable!
(For example: It's a LOT having a 4 year old, 3 year old, and 1 year old haha - but I'm not going to say "Having 3 kids is overwhelming, period!")
A lot of people find a groove, their older ones cross a "helpful and contributing" threshold, and find adding more kids later is actually.... kind of great. :)
Recognizing "the NOW of... having littles" as a stage, and not a permanent state, is probably one good way to sum up my answer to Q2, about the voices and experiences that shaped my context about having children. My parents were always clear about their affection for the baby stages-- the cuddles, the board books, the discoveries and milestones-- while also pairing it with the observation that not all parents felt the same. For example, my dad would contrast his perspective with that of a friend (of a similar age, but who had children later), noting that Friend was exhausted and demoralized by his slog through the era of diapers, tantrums, dangers, and general baby-and-toddler fog. But when Friend's kids got bigger, and started to enjoy sports and books and travel and such, he came into his own as a dad and really thrived.
So perhaps that awareness of the specificity of each stage, and and also its transience, was a framing factor for what I expected out of parenthood, and also one of the reasons I could look forward to it; knowing that nothing is forever; babies and children and big kids are always growing and changing; it's okay to enjoy some seasons better than others because each of us is a whole person with preferences and gifts that will match some seasons of parenting better than others; and there wasn't (in my received experience) any one single script or narrative of how parenthood was "supposed" to go. I could frame my expectations based on what I'd seen my parents value, and how they raised my siblings and me; and it was also such a gift to hear them reflect out loud about *being* parents, and all that it entails.
This is a really good point, and a wonderful way of putting it.
On the first question, I’ve heavily gamed my Facebook algorithm, and so appreciate the content it generally shows me. But lately I’ve noticed many more TikTok-like videos in my feed, not all of which are the type of positive, informative content I’ve deliberately liked or intended to watch. It takes constant vigilance to not get sucked into “bridezilla” videos or “you won’t believe what my evil boss did” content. I don’t think the issue is algorithms per se, but that they optimize for attention regardless of whether it’s good or healthy. Profit prioritized over well being is not the way any business should run.
On Q2, my liberal counter cultural parents were always enthusiastically pro grandkid, insisting that if I got pregnant young they would *loooove* to help. I also loved the idea of a big family probably in part because of a Boxcar Children childhood obsession and because my wonderful elementary school teacher had nine kids (two of whom also taught us). She was a saint - all kindness and careful attention to what kids needed and hoped for.
But those vague hopes quickly ran up against the reality of having kids in a society that charges an astronomical amount for healthcare, housing and childcare. That knowledge, running the math during and after college, meant I decided to wait and reset my child bearing goals - including, major factor - choosing a partner who did not want a large family. I think part of this calculation was also informed by a fear that having a kid young would mean being stuck: shutting down so many different possible futures, locking in a partner, eliminating opportunities to grow and shift my career. Now I’m 37, have one delightful kid, and would love to have one more. I don’t regret waiting! And after they’re grown I’m hoping to foster.
I would tell college students today that we should be fighting for so much more than the CTC. That we can and should craft a society that genuinely cares about kids and families by reducing the strain on women to figure it all out in an expensive patchwork system. That it’s true that right now having kids is *so* much harder than it should be, and that it is incompatible in many cases with building the life you might want to live. But it doesn’t have to be that way.
Martha, same, on gaming the FB algorithm. One thing I try to do is to X out of pretty much any and every ad, which does seem to baffle the algorithm, and it means I see just a bananas range of attempts to target my interests. Everything from a portable pen for effectively containing feral hogs, to insurance policies for tattoo parlor owners, to hair- and skincare products for a huge range of ethnicities, etc... all that to say, for products way outside my everyday lived experience. Maybe this is an example of "deliberate design", to Leah's Q1-- in a way, I'm actively choosing to avoid targeted ads that would in fact be tempting or distracting for me personally, and so maybe it's easier to tune them out altogether. Which makes literal and metaphorical "room" on my feeds for the things I do care about seeing when I log on.
I don't use Facebook much these days - I disliked how often I was composing statuses in my head - but I do use it to check in with people occasionally. I have a browser plugin that allows me to access groups and search for a specific person's feed, but doesn't show the timeline at all. I'm grateful to the friend who introduced me to that plugin, as my FB use is now almost all choice rather than algorithm, and my time using it is drastically reduced as a result.
Can you share the name of the plug-in? I used Facebook almost exclusively for local giveaways and events but recent changes have made it very glitchy and annoying (why am I seeing 13 silly memes while checking to see if anyone is giving away sheets?)
Of course! It's for Chrome (maybe for other browsers too, I don't know) and it's called News Feed Eradicator.
Indirectly related
I ran across this piece recently on honoring mothers, and I wonder how motherhood would be perceived differently if our society followed what this author envisions. (it's by Rachel Lu. The hook for the piece is the Dobbs leak, so that's a bit dated, but the rest of the piece is really valuable.)
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2022/05/03/supreme-court-abortion-catholic-motherhood-242925
I have been struggling to figure out how to turn off my phone and not miss important things. I thought about it and realized most notifications are texts and people will call if it's something really important, so I turned all my texts and WhatsApp threads to silent but left the ringer on. Except my husband, whose texts I do want to read and respond to right away - I found a setting where all texts are silent except his. And if someone calls, I'll hear it.
Then when I have actually dedicated time, I can go back and read and respond to the other texts, instead of sneaking them in when my toddler's back is turned. If I read them, I will think about them, and not really pay attention to the people I'm with. If I don't read them, I can not be distracted from the people with me.
This was only a few days ago, but so far it's working really well.
I really liked that linked article, thanks for sharing it!
1: Several years ago...(oddly enough in the aftermath that was the 2016 election/dumpster fire) I backed away from Facebook and Instagram. I have never really looked back. I do miss seeing pictures of friends kids, but everything that I was seeing was less pictures from friends and more toxic political "gotchas" and it was sickening. A couple years ago, I did the same thing with Twitter/X, and while I do miss talking with friends I made on that platform, I was really worn out from constantly resetting my account to "newest posts" versus "top posts". I am much happier and a lot less annoyed and irritated.
2: Oh this is one hits: I became Catholic in college, but my family of Origin is at best athiest-agnostic. I was *supposed* to go to college get a degree and become some big "Women's libber" (my mother's words about what my dad wanted for me) with a career and no need for a husband or kids. After all there are too many people on the earth anyway /s. When I chose to get married 3.5 mths after I graduated from college, my dad, just before we walked down the aisle, said, "Now don't do anything stupid like get pregnant right away."
I got pregnant 6 weeks later. Discovered it a bit late (long story) and was 9 weeks by the time we told my parents who spent 2 hours on the phone berating me for being so irresponsible.
After a rough pregnancy that ended at 34w6day due to Toxemia, I came home with a 4lb13oz baby boy, postpartum depression, and the decision to not have any more children.
And God giggled.
That scrawny boy is now 22 and 5'11" and has 9 siblings... Each of whom are loved by their grandparents, but each of their pregnancies was met with hostility both from my parents who didn't want me to be "just a mom" (after #8 was announced) and my "friends" who claimed they wanted me to know that I "was more than just a uterus" (after #3, 4, 5, and 6). Or one friend who joked about using butter knife to castrate my husband because I shouldn't be made to have anymore kids. (That was after #4)
I had to spend years coming to terms with 1: letting down the people who had different expectations for my life and 2: that I was not in nearly as much control over it as I thought I was. And that's not only okay, but is truly a wonderful thing.
I'm just going to gleefully point out--"They aren't nearly as in control over your life as they thought they were, (???) either!" (I'm slightly mortified by the friends' comments. And the two hours of haranguing over the phone. And the "Now don't do anything stupid...")
🤣😂 You are not wrong! They had a lot of trouble accepting that as well. Most of the friends and I have long-since parted ways. And I am happy to report that with #10, my parents were fairly accepting, comparatively speaking.
Hey! Do you have ways you'd dream to talking to those friends effectively? Like how to usefully say something to try to get them to see what you see, or at least how their careless words were little knives? (I've been known to obsess over how to respond to harsh words--and in recent years, ACTUALLY finding ways to engage charitably, sometimes. Though not necessarily in the exact moment!)
Now I'm gonna tell you one that happened with me... When I was pregnant with my younger son, my dad... with a kind, encouraging tone of voice but not in a connected-to-reality way, said to me, "Have you guys ever thought of going back to school... of going to grad school?" I actually went "Dad! You can't actually have it all! What do you want me to do, put them in daycare all day?" (Note: A big part of the reason I chose this specific argument was because I knew my Dad's values would actually accept it. Like, if confronted with a vision of the future where "In order to do grad school, Vikki puts her kids in Daycare/Childcare a lot," he would realize his own view of that is, "Well, no, I don't actually think that's good." But he wouldn't have any plan for how to reconcile "prestigious higher education for my daughter is good" with "my daughter being present as a mom for her kids in the home all day is good" - just wanted "finite time resources" to not be a real constraint humans have to live within. It came out passionately because I myself wanted to be present with my kids, I knew my hubbie wanted me to, and we were sure of that.)
That's amazing! The disconnect is so frustrating, though it sounds like your dad was pretty understanding once confronted with the logic of the situation.
To answer your initial questions. I think about my friends and how their words affected me (there were many other words and comments over the years before I finally cut ties). And I do acknowledge that there was, at least a little, true concern in what they were expressing (I had been in the hospital for a week before I had my first because of the Toxemia). But! At some point I realized, even and maybe especially for my friends, their comments reflected that they no longer knew who I was, and maybe never really knew. They assumed that I was miserable or that I was somehow being forced into doing something (having children, more than 1, staying home, homeschooling, stemming all the way back to becoming Catholic) that I didn't want to do. No matter what I said or did to demonstrate I was not only fine, but joyful and content with this life, they didn't believe. And every venting or complaint I had about a specific situation or specific instance was taken as proof that I was being forced or coerced. I just stopped sharing with them.
If I could tell them anything now it would be that I'm sorry I had to walk away, but when I realized how little they thought of me and my abilities to do anything without undue influence from others (in their eyes, my husband, who they were supposed to be friends with as well), well, how do I confront that? It's almost like becoming Catholic - embracing Christ - meant a radical (if not slow) transformation of my life and what is important. Who would have guessed???? Hah!
I so appreciate you sharing your story. And I'm so glad you have joy and contentment in your life, it's a beautiful thing.
If you don't mind digging into a hard conversation, I'd love to hear your perspective on this one. I know one woman who has many children (and is continuing to have children) with very little spacing (and what little spacing there is has been due to miscarriages). She insists she's happy and that this is God's plan for her, but I do wish she and her husband would learn about natural family planning and the longterm physical effects of a lack of spacing on mother and children. They live a very traditional life (totally fine!), where he decides when they have sex (not fine - he insists that sex is a husband's right, doesn't believe in marital rape, etc). I find both of their current insistence that God is planning their family... boggling, given that her husband is actively getting her pregnant with barely a break in between.
So.. questions for you: What made you open, or what would have made you open to NFP? What could have made the conversation better, whether it happened or not? And is there an appropriate way for a friend to talk to the couple in this instance?
Thank you for your kind words.
Let me begin by answering your questions: Initially, NFP was never discussed. In fact after my oldest was born, due to some extremely minor medical issue, it was recommended by my obgyn to go on the birth control pill and I was too young, naive, and unaware to look for any alternatives. When I finally went off the pill completely 1 yr after my third was born, it was more because it was making me crazy anxious. I was still learning what it meant for me to embrace this Catholic faith I had joined 9 years earlier. The next four children are all on average about 20months apart. In the middle of all of that chaos, we decided to look into NFP. I settled on the Creighton method for various reasons. And then moved onto the Marquette Method (essentially combining Creighton with a fertility monitor). Long story short, our laziness, impatience, perfectionism, passion, and my (recently diagnosed) ADHD contributed to inaccurate charting and a "God's will be done." attitude. So our seemingly lack of NFP stems mostly from being introduced to NFP later in our marriage, user-error, and a more nonchalant attitude toward planning in general. Even when I tried to be as thorough and aware of cycles and charting, and abstain for often more than what was required...well #6&7 surprised us.
I fully acknowledge that I have been fortunate to have had relatively easy pregnancies, labors and deliveries (aside from the first), which makes it much easier to "throw caution to the wind". I also fully acknowledge that I have a wonderful husband who respects and supports me in everything - and while we have fallen mainly into "traditional roles", he used to do most of the cooking before his schedule became so crazy, he does most of the laundry, and he cleans the bathrooms (because, eeeewwww, 7 boys live here - not counting him) among many other things like fixing the endless amount of things that a family this big, with this many boys, inevitably break.
To address the situation you brought up, I think first it's good to be cognizant that not every woman is going to experience ill effects from seemingly back-to-back pregnancies. Some women will be able to handle the physical and even mental load of several pregnancies in a row in a short amount of time, and for the most part will be good with it. I am not saying this is the case that you have mentioned here, but it would be wrong to assume that every woman will have problems with it in the same way that it would be wrong to assume every woman will never have problems with it. To go along with this, without knowing the couple and situation in question, in detail, it would be a mistake to assume that the husband is actively and intentionally trying to get and keep his wife pregnant. Without he himself using some form of NFP, without her help, he would have next to nil idea about when she is actively fertile. It may be that they are super fertile, or he may just sense that when he is super attracted to her she must be fertile and therefore takes every opportunity. (Note this last part could and may very well be a problem, but it is a separate problem from the idea of him intentionally trying to keep her pregnant without a break.)
All of this being said, I have run into and spoken with people as you describe and unfortunately I have not figured out what to say. It is somewhat disconcerting to see and hear what is ultimately a misconstruing of both Jesus and St. Paul in order to justify one's own pride and selfishness. Perhaps encouraging or even just introducing them to the NFP instructors within the diocese/parish/area (if you know them the instructors). If they're active in their parish encourage them to do things together where they seek out other couples in places where some of these topics might come up and pray that fruitful conversation can be borne. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that a woman will not be able to say anything, no matter how true it may be, that a man, who exhibits what you describe above will believe or even be willing to hear. Perhaps if another man can calmly present a logical correction, maybe, but even then...the Holy Spirit is your best bet. And making sure that the woman involved always knows that you will be a willing listener, without judgement, if that time should arise. (I know you know this, but it's worth repeating!)
I don't know how much that helps...
Awww!!
Okay, I love this.
Q1 This is something that is constantly on my mind. I think we are offered endless choices in the modern age, and it is just simply crushing. Choices are great, but the degree to which we can choose almost everything now is unnatural, and I think really affects us more than we know. As a silly example, today I read the ingredients on 6 different brands of hummus to see which one had the best ingredients. I *like* being able to choose, but it does add heft to our minds to have to consider so much. So in that sense, algorithms certainly make sense. In order to get away from algorithms in our life though, I have done a few things. Personally, getting off social media was a life-changing move; completely bypassing that particular algorithm has freed up brain space. For my kids, we have slowly gotten rid of all streaming services and now only have DVDs. It definitely takes time to flip through the book and choose, but I think it's healthier than being bombarded with all the personalized suggestions on Netflix, etc. Anyway, this was really interesting! Thanks for your writing!
Oooh. I love the idea of a DVD binder vs streaming.
I got married at 22 and we welcomed our first baby before our first anniversary. The biggest factor by far was that my husband and I both wanted children and desired to structure our lives around marriage and children first. However, it helped that we saw other couples in their 20s from our parish having children. Otherwise in our large metropolis, it’s quite common to wait until one’s 30s to have children, so at professional events, young adult events, and otherwise in our social circle we didn’t see many other examples of people having children early in their marriage or early in their working ages.
I think if I had been more “plugged in” to parenting-related social groups I might have felt more apprehensive. I didn’t have a reason to join local mom-specific groups until my oldest was of an age to do rec center swim lessons. Once I did, I became much more aware of the different financial and career standards for “ready” to have kids or a “good enough” childhood. I don’t want to downplay the expense of children, because there’s a baseline cost of eg food, medical care, and childcare time, but I’ve seen how a subjective assessment of individual comfort levels with having children can be expressed as a universal minimum.
YES ----> "I don’t want to downplay the expense of children, because there’s a baseline cost of eg food, medical care, and childcare time, but I’ve seen how a subjective assessment of individual comfort levels with having children can be expressed as a universal minimum."
I know other moms in my town here who get by on SO much less than the cultural living standard (maybe even less than mine, which is already well below average lol) because their families value things differently, and structured their lives and expectations accordingly.
And I'm with you on the encouraging examples of a church setting. I've mostly been in circles where having kids is the norm, a lot of fun, intrinsically good, and not unusual to start in your early twenties if possible, or soon after getting married. It's culture shock being surrounded by people who don't take that approach, for whatever reason. Like the stories my husband tells me of people at work, and how they talk about these things! Wild.
Claire, this rings true for me, too. I had my first baby a few years later than my heart and hopes might otherwise have planned; and in my frame of reference, in which my parents married right after college and had their first two babies in their mid-twenties, this registered for me as "late" (at least a little). However, when my oldest entered preschool and I started seeing other parents around at drop-off, pick-up, and school events, I suddenly felt *much younger*, because I had in fact started my family in my twenties, and so many of these urban, professional, more affluent parent neighbors were easily ten years older than me, or more, and had waited longer. And so I hadn't expected to (or prepared for how to) navigate that social aspect of it, because I hadn't perceived myself as a "young" parent until finding myself in that context. At the same time (and to Leah's Q2), because of the family and community environment in which I was raised, I *did* feel very confident and centered going into parenthood, rather more so than some of these preschool-parent peers.
And thus somehow I was both "younger" and "more experienced" all at once, in those circles-- it gave me occasion to realize how much more equipped I came, so to speak, by prior exposure to little ones, and by the general mindset and practical approaches that I'd absorbed along the way, plus the default expectation that yes, family life is nice, and yes, I'd want to raise a family someday.
Q2 - When I was in college I wanted to have kids in a "someday" sort of way. I just thought of it as part of the social script; I'd get married after college (presumably to my then-boyfriend) and we'd have kids, because that's what you do, particularly when you're both cradle Catholics at a Catholic university! But even when we were dating I remember thinking, "Hmm, there are certain ways I hope our children are not like him." That relationship ended and when I met my husband my thinking completely changed; suddenly I wanted to have HIS kids. I knew if my sons grew up to be like him, that would be a good thing, and I wanted him to be the father of my daughters. That was a big indicator that we should get married! It also helped that he was very clear about wanting to have children from the beginning of our relationship, so that really brought it from a "someday" scenario to "this is something we are both desirous of and planning for."
To answer question 2 - As a child my parents told me constantly that having children was a mistake and it only led to misery. As I reached my teens/twenties this narrative joined the cultural narrative that having children was a burden on women, to be free and happy you should be childless, etc. In university and graduate school this sentiment was even louder, particularly in the leftist circles in which I ran. There was also the pressure to not add to overpopulation or burden the environment, etc. It was a fairly all-encompassing, so much so that when the women's studies professor announced she was having a baby the program was shocked. I feel very sorry now looking back that so many of us young women and men had that perspective drummed into us. It is such a shame.
I TRY to consciously choose away from the "nudge," but the nudge is not always perceived.
As far as children, my wife and I were simply open to the reality that children could result from matrimonial union. That openness was a conscious choice, to refuse all forms of artificial birth control. Cultural voices that insisted on following the clarion call of "free sex" were noticed but disregarded.
I guess the primary voice for this was the Catholic Church itself, which then led to further reading that supported the logic behind the Church's position.
Q2: I attended an engineering school and got a degree in engineering. During my time in college, almost none of my female peers talked about wanting to have children. Most talked about children as expensive and they didn't seem to see a correlation between childbearing and happiness. My female professors were mothers but rarely talked about it, instead they placed a big emphasis on encouraging young women to break any ceiling in STEM fields. I remember reading Jordan Peterson early on and thinking he made a very compelling case that women should not dismiss motherhood or their maternal instinct so easily. At the same time, I had grown up in a Christian ecumenical group that was way more sympathetic towards family life and children. However, despite the fact that the majority of the people in the group were Catholic, contraception was widely accepted and even encouraged. Big families (more than 3 kids) were uncommon. The end result was that in my early twenties my approach to children was mostly pragmatical: it was in my best interest to consider having children or at least not dismiss it as relevant to my happiness but never "too many kids" as that was not "responsible". These days I'm very grateful that I don't think about children in that way anymore :)