Re: the second comment, "I've seen so many women step back from other friendships/hobbies/interests when they have children."
I don't have any (living) children but quality of life is something I think about as I plan to have them. I've seen studies that say modern working mothers women spend the same amount or more hours per week on childrearing than stay-at-home mothers from 50 years ago. * Which seems non-ideal. How can we create more times for ourselves without negatively impacting our children? I imagine that it comes with practice and deliberate effort. Or do we just have to work from before dawn to past dusk like many of our foremothers did?
How can we encourage our children to play and work independently with less supervision? Is it possible to spend less time and money on our children, with equally good outcomes? Is the solution simply not helicoptering? Is it possible to not helicopter in an era where in order for teens to get into good colleges they need ridiculously many extracurriculars and very high GPAs?
I don't think this is a subjective, cultural "parenting choice."
I write poetry. I used to publish a lot, have a few chapbooks, did some readings. Poets don't tend to make living incomes so I intentionally got a full time job. These days I have little energy for submissions so just quietly write in a Google doc in my free time, between full time job and family care. (Toddler is 3 and plays well independently - I don't feel like I helicopter her - she's a good egg) I read a lot of poetry but it's a solitary pursuit.
I am always thinking about how to reclaim more time for my craft. and how to find community... so I just listened to this "doomer optimism" podcast. Two moms of young children, who are writers/teachers and have MFAs.
They described taking writer's retreats to work on their writing. Could I do that? Dad and grandparents could step in.... but I work full time and would hate taking that precious time away from my toddler. I don't think this is helicopter parenting? I need to see her sometime! Should I have gotten a different job?
They described seeking mentors, and enrolling in an MFA program to access mentorship. I looked into the program attended by the interviewees. It's a paid program. Not that I live a life of austerity, far from it, but MFAs are not in our budget. 10 years ago I was waitlisted for some major fully funded programs and I've advanced quite a bit since them - I might be able to squeeze into a funded opportunity - but there's also the issue where I have a home and a family here and can't just pack up and move to Syracuse...
I felt discouraged. I have free time and joy in my life, but there is no way to bring my writing back to the level it used to be, pre-kid - not without significant money or social support that I cannot access right now. I don't think this is a problem of helicopter parenting! Far from it! It's also not per se a "kid" issue. It's an economic thing.
I think there are parts of my life that are much more "on pause" while my children are at their littlest, and I'm thinking more about how to winter them, so they still have good roots to grow again when I can do more.
But I also think it *is* fine to take an occasional retreat for writing. The biggest thing I try to do (and rely on some paid childcare to help with) is to be deliberate in giving my full attention to my kids *and* to my work at separate times (I do not nail this!). So sometimes having time alone to work assiduously at something that challenges me makes it easier to not feel pulled away in my time with them.
And it's so cool you *do* write poetry! My husband does, and I don't. It's something I'd like to try when my girls are big enough to mess around with low expectations, and then I could be an amateur alongside them.
I am.actually curious- you've written books and maintain a career- I don't see any wintering though I may be wrong. Who watches your kids when you do these blog posts, write books, or speak at events? Do you get up at 4am? (something I considered) Or write in 10 minute snippets? Who does the domestic work in your absence? I'm stuck on that. If I don't do it, no one is going to do it for me but it needs to be done.
I’m catching up on my email inbox and wanted to share - how we measured “time with children” changed between the 60s/70s American Time Use Survey and our current version. The 60s/70s don’t have a “secondary childcare” variable like the current survey does, so it’s hard to compare apples to apples, but the total time in domestic work + primary child care has stayed relatively constant over decades and between subgroups. What’s shifted is the split between housework and time with children without doing housework. I’ve traced this claim back to a book that I haven’t been able to lay hands on yet, so caveat emptor, but I’m not sure that the claim that parenting is more all-encompassing/draining now than it was 50 years ago is the best interpretation of the data (from a time use perspective) we have.
I think plenty of parents - myself included - still find that children take up a lot of our time, so I don’t want to deny that people can experience real distress over a child-related time crunches. But I do want to encourage that time use data studies as interpreted by news media may not be showing all the nuance.
Yes, I imagine that people 50 years ago were spending more time on housework, such as vacuuming their carpeted bathrooms, hanging up washing to dry, ironing dress shirts, etc.
Yes I think it would have been fascinating to have time use surveys going back to the turn of the century paired with data about household appliances - from the basic existence of electricity and indoor plumbing to dishwashers and vacuum cleaners, but alas I don’t think it exists! ATUS does get pretty detailed about the type of house work though, and just last week I did a deep dive into the length of grocery store trips with and without children
> "How can we create more times for ourselves without negatively impacting our children? ...Or do we just have to work from before dawn to past dusk like many of our foremothers did?"
In my case, I think it came from screwing up! With my first kid, I was assiduous and you know, kinda felt like I had no time to myself. At one point, my husband looked turned to me and said, "You know... you don't HAVE to be with him constantly. You could go, like.. read a book or something!" My husband actually thought it would be good for the kiddo, too--to not be too enmeshed with mom! (I think he was like two-and-a-half.)
And it hit me like a revelation! Realllly? So I went upstairs and flopped out on the bed and read fiction for a couple hours, and it was delightful.
Some years later, when the kids were older, I ended up recovering from burnout by closing myself in the bedroom reading Sci-Fi/fantasy/novels for most of the hours of a day for multiple straight days. Twice!
I think the occasional "working from before dawn to past dusk" sprint will HAPPEN... (though I feel like I don't know what I'm talking about. I love rest, and play, and "goofing around"; I procrastinate on the un-fun things. I think the only time in recorded history when I've done such a thing as a "before-dawn-to-past-dusk sprint" was once we had a serious pest problem in an old apartment.)
Anyway, I think sometimes circumstances will necessitate that... possibly because you screwed up, or because your hubbie screwed up, or someone else screwed up, OR possibly just because life is just hard. But maybe it will be recognized as a special sacrifice? (though also maybe it won't.) And I think that would hold two big challenges: not to become bitter in the middle of doing the long, unavoidable tasks, and to be honest with oneself about "Do I really need to do this / stay up late / is it costing too much?"
Delightful story... when I was a young mom, sometimes after Bible Study, I'd drive to the house of a family friend. One time she told my how when her kids were little, she craved the time after they were both asleep. She was like "I'd stay up HOURS reading a book--I just wouldn't stop." She pointed to a big work of needlepoint in the living room, "I made that back when they were young, after they were sleeping. I should have gone to sleep. That was crazy!" She opened her eyes wide, and repeated "Crazy." So I could simultaneously laugh at myself as I laughed at her.. and recognize the temptation as probably pretty universal. (I had come to notice that when my kids were both asleep, I USUALLY felt a "second wind" of energy!)
Re: the second comment, "I've seen so many women step back from other friendships/hobbies/interests when they have children."
I don't have any (living) children but quality of life is something I think about as I plan to have them. I've seen studies that say modern working mothers women spend the same amount or more hours per week on childrearing than stay-at-home mothers from 50 years ago. * Which seems non-ideal. How can we create more times for ourselves without negatively impacting our children? I imagine that it comes with practice and deliberate effort. Or do we just have to work from before dawn to past dusk like many of our foremothers did?
How can we encourage our children to play and work independently with less supervision? Is it possible to spend less time and money on our children, with equally good outcomes? Is the solution simply not helicoptering? Is it possible to not helicopter in an era where in order for teens to get into good colleges they need ridiculously many extracurriculars and very high GPAs?
* source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/25/upshot/the-relentlessness-of-modern-parenting.html
I don't think this is a subjective, cultural "parenting choice."
I write poetry. I used to publish a lot, have a few chapbooks, did some readings. Poets don't tend to make living incomes so I intentionally got a full time job. These days I have little energy for submissions so just quietly write in a Google doc in my free time, between full time job and family care. (Toddler is 3 and plays well independently - I don't feel like I helicopter her - she's a good egg) I read a lot of poetry but it's a solitary pursuit.
I am always thinking about how to reclaim more time for my craft. and how to find community... so I just listened to this "doomer optimism" podcast. Two moms of young children, who are writers/teachers and have MFAs.
They described taking writer's retreats to work on their writing. Could I do that? Dad and grandparents could step in.... but I work full time and would hate taking that precious time away from my toddler. I don't think this is helicopter parenting? I need to see her sometime! Should I have gotten a different job?
They described seeking mentors, and enrolling in an MFA program to access mentorship. I looked into the program attended by the interviewees. It's a paid program. Not that I live a life of austerity, far from it, but MFAs are not in our budget. 10 years ago I was waitlisted for some major fully funded programs and I've advanced quite a bit since them - I might be able to squeeze into a funded opportunity - but there's also the issue where I have a home and a family here and can't just pack up and move to Syracuse...
I felt discouraged. I have free time and joy in my life, but there is no way to bring my writing back to the level it used to be, pre-kid - not without significant money or social support that I cannot access right now. I don't think this is a problem of helicopter parenting! Far from it! It's also not per se a "kid" issue. It's an economic thing.
I think there are parts of my life that are much more "on pause" while my children are at their littlest, and I'm thinking more about how to winter them, so they still have good roots to grow again when I can do more.
But I also think it *is* fine to take an occasional retreat for writing. The biggest thing I try to do (and rely on some paid childcare to help with) is to be deliberate in giving my full attention to my kids *and* to my work at separate times (I do not nail this!). So sometimes having time alone to work assiduously at something that challenges me makes it easier to not feel pulled away in my time with them.
And it's so cool you *do* write poetry! My husband does, and I don't. It's something I'd like to try when my girls are big enough to mess around with low expectations, and then I could be an amateur alongside them.
I am.actually curious- you've written books and maintain a career- I don't see any wintering though I may be wrong. Who watches your kids when you do these blog posts, write books, or speak at events? Do you get up at 4am? (something I considered) Or write in 10 minute snippets? Who does the domestic work in your absence? I'm stuck on that. If I don't do it, no one is going to do it for me but it needs to be done.
I've been working part time from home! And my bigger girl is in school and my littler girl has a mix of half day school and half day childcare.
I cook, but I'll be honest, we don't do a lot of big cleaning besides picking up toys! A neighbor boy mows our lawn.
Honestly, a lot comes down to what you said there -- having money and/or social support (especially family nearby). I am learning that, myself.
I’m catching up on my email inbox and wanted to share - how we measured “time with children” changed between the 60s/70s American Time Use Survey and our current version. The 60s/70s don’t have a “secondary childcare” variable like the current survey does, so it’s hard to compare apples to apples, but the total time in domestic work + primary child care has stayed relatively constant over decades and between subgroups. What’s shifted is the split between housework and time with children without doing housework. I’ve traced this claim back to a book that I haven’t been able to lay hands on yet, so caveat emptor, but I’m not sure that the claim that parenting is more all-encompassing/draining now than it was 50 years ago is the best interpretation of the data (from a time use perspective) we have.
I think plenty of parents - myself included - still find that children take up a lot of our time, so I don’t want to deny that people can experience real distress over a child-related time crunches. But I do want to encourage that time use data studies as interpreted by news media may not be showing all the nuance.
Thank you!
Yes, I imagine that people 50 years ago were spending more time on housework, such as vacuuming their carpeted bathrooms, hanging up washing to dry, ironing dress shirts, etc.
Yes I think it would have been fascinating to have time use surveys going back to the turn of the century paired with data about household appliances - from the basic existence of electricity and indoor plumbing to dishwashers and vacuum cleaners, but alas I don’t think it exists! ATUS does get pretty detailed about the type of house work though, and just last week I did a deep dive into the length of grocery store trips with and without children
> "How can we create more times for ourselves without negatively impacting our children? ...Or do we just have to work from before dawn to past dusk like many of our foremothers did?"
In my case, I think it came from screwing up! With my first kid, I was assiduous and you know, kinda felt like I had no time to myself. At one point, my husband looked turned to me and said, "You know... you don't HAVE to be with him constantly. You could go, like.. read a book or something!" My husband actually thought it would be good for the kiddo, too--to not be too enmeshed with mom! (I think he was like two-and-a-half.)
And it hit me like a revelation! Realllly? So I went upstairs and flopped out on the bed and read fiction for a couple hours, and it was delightful.
Some years later, when the kids were older, I ended up recovering from burnout by closing myself in the bedroom reading Sci-Fi/fantasy/novels for most of the hours of a day for multiple straight days. Twice!
I think the occasional "working from before dawn to past dusk" sprint will HAPPEN... (though I feel like I don't know what I'm talking about. I love rest, and play, and "goofing around"; I procrastinate on the un-fun things. I think the only time in recorded history when I've done such a thing as a "before-dawn-to-past-dusk sprint" was once we had a serious pest problem in an old apartment.)
Anyway, I think sometimes circumstances will necessitate that... possibly because you screwed up, or because your hubbie screwed up, or someone else screwed up, OR possibly just because life is just hard. But maybe it will be recognized as a special sacrifice? (though also maybe it won't.) And I think that would hold two big challenges: not to become bitter in the middle of doing the long, unavoidable tasks, and to be honest with oneself about "Do I really need to do this / stay up late / is it costing too much?"
Delightful story... when I was a young mom, sometimes after Bible Study, I'd drive to the house of a family friend. One time she told my how when her kids were little, she craved the time after they were both asleep. She was like "I'd stay up HOURS reading a book--I just wouldn't stop." She pointed to a big work of needlepoint in the living room, "I made that back when they were young, after they were sleeping. I should have gone to sleep. That was crazy!" She opened her eyes wide, and repeated "Crazy." So I could simultaneously laugh at myself as I laughed at her.. and recognize the temptation as probably pretty universal. (I had come to notice that when my kids were both asleep, I USUALLY felt a "second wind" of energy!)
I’m having trouble with the survey link!
Thank you! All fixed.