Ooh, I can't think how I missed the original conversation, but this reminds me of one of the themes of a Lenten journal I just finished (Sr Miriam Heidland's Restore, would highly recommend, prepare to cry buckets) which quotes Dr Bob Schuchts as saying, “Behind every disordered desire is a good and holy desire, an unmet need, an unhealed wound, and a hidden pattern of sin.”
I'm sorry that I somehow missed Eve's contribution -- I thought Substack would notify me about other comments, not just responses to my own! I do appreciate what she had to say, and I think it does depend an awful, awful lot on which desires it is we're talking about. That definitely shaped my comment. And if gender stereotyping is allowed, I'll go out on a limb and say that the average female set of desires is, uh, far less disordered than the average male set of desires. That is, that while women can and do have all sorts of sinful sexual desires, they're more likely to be the sorts of longing that can be reshaped and expressed in a healthy way whereas men are not To use the tamest example I can think of, a woman is more likely to want to indulge in a trashy erotic novel that celebrates monogamous mutual affection, whereas a man is more likely to want to take a second wife who is younger and more attractive than the mother of his children. And male desires do often deform towards violence and s/m stuff specifically, which I am still scratching my head about in terms of how to turn that ugly, poisonous, spiky caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly. But maybe I just need to dig in to Eve's archives some more on that one.
Both, but probably slightly more inculturated than intrinsic. It's probably the same question as "why are there far more men in prison for murder than women?"
For me, it’s been helpful to see desires as concentric rings rather than hierarchical ladders. To ask “what’s at the center of this desire?” instead of “is this a better or worse, higher or lower desire?”
This way of looking at them seems to line up well with the verses about God giving us “the desires of our hearts.” I have come to believe that all desires are, at their core, good and that God will fulfill them all in our pursuit of Him and our pursuit of living out His Kingdom in our world (ultimately when He fully establishes His kingdom on earth in the promised future). Yet I also fully realize that not all of my surface desires are going to be met. Asking “what is at the heart of this desire?” helps me to differentiate between the deepest desires and the more surface desires that are actually my idea of how those deeper ones may be met. And helps me to pray better as well.
For example, I have to have some difficult conversations today with a couple different medical offices. I really really want them to go well -- as in, I want to feel heard, I want the conversations to end amicably, I want to get the help I need, and I don’t want to have to fight for my needs. I could pray for all those outcomes, holding tight to my vision of them for today’s conversations. Or I could look a little deeper and see that my desires are bigger and more tricky than this: I want a safe place to discuss a complex illness I have, I want to advance understanding of that illness (which for some astounding reason is little known, in spite of its prevalence), and I want to gain these in a way that speaks truth in love as opposed to in a way that batters people and leaves them in a puddle of shame. I also want to do it in a way that doesn’t exhaust me and make my illness worse. When I dig into my desires, I see a bigger picture than my desires for today’s conversations. Not that my surface desires are wrong, they’re just not the core. And since there is a strong likelihood that today’s hoped-for outcomes may be a mixed bag, holding onto the bigger desires helps me to trust beyond today for the bigger outworking of God in response to them.
I agree with Leah that every desire is rooted in a desire for something good, but I also think that there's some rhetorical sleight of hand going on if we then conclude that ranking desires isn't useful because every desire is good. To say otherwise would be to deny that it's possible in any coherent way for me to desire to, e.g., pick a fight with my brother. And if we move to the question of “What are the possible good expressions of my desires?” we have already in some sense denied that the original desire (for the bad thing) existed.
To get very philosophical, I think the types we are really searching for here are some set of desires for core, good things (or perhaps just The Good) and then another set of, say, desire-manifestations which may be good or bad. Ranking these manifestations may be useful at some times and not at others. But I do claim that you really can rank them!
Ooh, I can't think how I missed the original conversation, but this reminds me of one of the themes of a Lenten journal I just finished (Sr Miriam Heidland's Restore, would highly recommend, prepare to cry buckets) which quotes Dr Bob Schuchts as saying, “Behind every disordered desire is a good and holy desire, an unmet need, an unhealed wound, and a hidden pattern of sin.”
I'm sorry that I somehow missed Eve's contribution -- I thought Substack would notify me about other comments, not just responses to my own! I do appreciate what she had to say, and I think it does depend an awful, awful lot on which desires it is we're talking about. That definitely shaped my comment. And if gender stereotyping is allowed, I'll go out on a limb and say that the average female set of desires is, uh, far less disordered than the average male set of desires. That is, that while women can and do have all sorts of sinful sexual desires, they're more likely to be the sorts of longing that can be reshaped and expressed in a healthy way whereas men are not To use the tamest example I can think of, a woman is more likely to want to indulge in a trashy erotic novel that celebrates monogamous mutual affection, whereas a man is more likely to want to take a second wife who is younger and more attractive than the mother of his children. And male desires do often deform towards violence and s/m stuff specifically, which I am still scratching my head about in terms of how to turn that ugly, poisonous, spiky caterpillar into a beautiful butterfly. But maybe I just need to dig in to Eve's archives some more on that one.
Do you think that’s an intrinsic difference or an inculturated one?
Both, but probably slightly more inculturated than intrinsic. It's probably the same question as "why are there far more men in prison for murder than women?"
For me, it’s been helpful to see desires as concentric rings rather than hierarchical ladders. To ask “what’s at the center of this desire?” instead of “is this a better or worse, higher or lower desire?”
This way of looking at them seems to line up well with the verses about God giving us “the desires of our hearts.” I have come to believe that all desires are, at their core, good and that God will fulfill them all in our pursuit of Him and our pursuit of living out His Kingdom in our world (ultimately when He fully establishes His kingdom on earth in the promised future). Yet I also fully realize that not all of my surface desires are going to be met. Asking “what is at the heart of this desire?” helps me to differentiate between the deepest desires and the more surface desires that are actually my idea of how those deeper ones may be met. And helps me to pray better as well.
For example, I have to have some difficult conversations today with a couple different medical offices. I really really want them to go well -- as in, I want to feel heard, I want the conversations to end amicably, I want to get the help I need, and I don’t want to have to fight for my needs. I could pray for all those outcomes, holding tight to my vision of them for today’s conversations. Or I could look a little deeper and see that my desires are bigger and more tricky than this: I want a safe place to discuss a complex illness I have, I want to advance understanding of that illness (which for some astounding reason is little known, in spite of its prevalence), and I want to gain these in a way that speaks truth in love as opposed to in a way that batters people and leaves them in a puddle of shame. I also want to do it in a way that doesn’t exhaust me and make my illness worse. When I dig into my desires, I see a bigger picture than my desires for today’s conversations. Not that my surface desires are wrong, they’re just not the core. And since there is a strong likelihood that today’s hoped-for outcomes may be a mixed bag, holding onto the bigger desires helps me to trust beyond today for the bigger outworking of God in response to them.
I agree with Leah that every desire is rooted in a desire for something good, but I also think that there's some rhetorical sleight of hand going on if we then conclude that ranking desires isn't useful because every desire is good. To say otherwise would be to deny that it's possible in any coherent way for me to desire to, e.g., pick a fight with my brother. And if we move to the question of “What are the possible good expressions of my desires?” we have already in some sense denied that the original desire (for the bad thing) existed.
To get very philosophical, I think the types we are really searching for here are some set of desires for core, good things (or perhaps just The Good) and then another set of, say, desire-manifestations which may be good or bad. Ranking these manifestations may be useful at some times and not at others. But I do claim that you really can rank them!