As a single man in my mid-twenties, I rejoice in being able to help my married friends by picking up their children from school when mom and dad both have to work, or serving as a sort of spiritual father-figure for kids whose biological father isn’t in the picture anymore. Conversely, because I live alone and am sometimes lonely, my married friends have given me a standing invitation to come over to their houses. They get help with the craziness of raising little kids, and I get companionship and a glimpse into family life which (God-willing) will one day make me a better father and husband than I would be without it.
Dumb question, maybe, but if and how do you deal with the carseat issue? Do you keep a Mifold handy, or have you gotten really, really good at strapping in standard carseats?
We all want kids to be safe in the car, but increasing carseat requirements also make it harder to have someone else drive your kids (or to have more than two kids in the first place).
I keep an extra Cosco Scenera Next in my attic - it makes traveling with grandparents easier, installs quickly, is pretty inexpensive ($45) and fits kids 0-3. I have yet to find something as convenient for my 4yo. I have also done a double shift of driving with similarly sized kids - so for example my husband drove myself and the baby home from a party, then went back to drive our friends and their baby home because it was raining.
The Mifold is a "booster" that folds flat to about the size of a Manila envelope. It doesn't boost, but ensures the seatbelt goes low and tight across kids' laps and snugs the shoulder strap down. It has regulatory approval in the US and several other countries:
I'm looking forward to reading these responses because I've struggled with feeling unable to articulate my desire to be depended on. I moved to a new city relatively recently for law school and find the stark lack of any network of care/dependency so isolating. I spend a lot of my time with my academic cohort, and my colleagues really prize self-sufficiency. I've asked friends and peers for help before, but haven't had many opportunities to have anyone need my help, despite a conscious effort to proactively offer it. The "freedom" to be completely in control of my own schedule and concerned about only myself feels more like a prison. I've become more conscious about organizing my days around prayer or the church calendar as a way of freeing myself from so much self-determination.
I'm accustomed to being deeply involved in a church community where others depend on me to serve and pray, but I've found it shockingly challenging to establish roots in a new church community in my new city. Right now, my dating relationship is the place where I can both depend on someone else and be depended on in return. I would really like to get married in the near future, but have received lots of advice from friends that it's not the responsible thing to do while I'm still young and in school. I think many in our culture treat the desire to be depended on skeptically. Maybe this is because of greater awareness of how that desire can be problematic, like codependency that can strain a relationship, but I think there actually is a general sentiment in my circles that having needs that require others (like the need to be depended on) is inherently unhealthy.
One more thing. It's impossible to really know "what might have been," so take this with a grain of salt, but I suspect I am happier professionally than I would have been if I hadn't married him then. For ten years we've been getting to know each other better, having conversations to clarify what we really want to do, etc - and you can do that with friends, but having those conversations with the same person who remembers the last 100 times you talked about your goals, and who sees you act and react to various things along the way - that has been tremendously helpful for me in really clarifying my goals and seeking what I actually want instead of what I think I want or what I feel like I'm supposed to want.
Fwiw, I got married while my husband was still in undergrad. That was 10 years ago and we are doing really well. If both of you are responsible people, you can do it. There will be challenges, but if you have an attitude of "what is the best way for us to deal with this situation?" (as opposed to "can we deal with this situation?") then you'll find a way to deal with whatever comes up.
I'll just share more of my story because women who want marriage/children but are putting it off because of law school is one of my hobby horses.
My husband and I moved to a new city for law school where we did not know anyone and had no family. We had no money at all and since we were married we could not live in the student housing; we lived in a cheap, weird apartment two miles from school. This was a blessing because it forced us to get more integrated into a neighborhood and church rather than living in a toxic law school bubble (not all law school bubble are toxic but some can be!). We had to live apart in the summers so I could go to another city for internships/summer associateships. There were hard things about it and things I missed out on, but there are hard things about any choice; all choices mean you miss out on something.
When we had a baby, we depended on others. We asked for and received help from our church and my law school friends and professors, and my husband advocated for himself at work to get a reduced schedule. We did not have a lot of childcare, and I was not a top student, not even in the top half - but listen, 50% of your classmates are not in the top half either, whether or not they are married or have children. We still did not have much money and I would wash cloth diapers by hand in the bathtub with my casebooks open on the closed toilet and my baby in a carrier on my back so I could get the reading done for class. That part was not so fun, but it was temporary.
Today I'm a senior associate at a big law firm on track on make partner next year and we have three lovely young children; I work from home so I'm around for every meal, every bedtime, every time they get home from school and need to talk to their mom. And we already have 12 years of joyful marriage to sustain us and look back on.
There might be good reasons that now is not the right time for you and your boyfriend to get married, but that you are young and in law school isn't one of them.
I say this as a lawyer who has been in practice for a few years now: law students are some of the most personally dysfunctional people you’ll ever meet, and it is in your best interest to take the time to nurture friendships outside of that world. I am mostly happy in my professional choices, but I also made a lot of decisions during school and after that allowed me to have time for a life and do work I find personally meaningful (aka a LOT less money than the corporate gigs, but PSLF eligible).
Anyway, we’re five years out of school and lot of my friends are getting pregnant and realizing that they a) have no network outside of law school / lawyer friends and b) all those people are too busy to be of real help because all they do is work. And those who are still single are freaking out about their life choices. A lot of my friends now get why I made these “eccentric” choices in law school and are shifting their careers and goals to be more similar to mine.
That said, while I have a lot of good things going on I’m also in the singleton boat, so it is what it is?
PS - there’s never a “good” time to get married or have kids as a lawyer, because there’s always going to be the bar, or partner track, or trial, or whatever. If you’re confident in your relationship and feel that you are both emotionally mature enough for marriage, don’t be afraid and do it.
"I would really like to get married in the near future, but have received lots of advice from friends that it's not the responsible thing to do while I'm still young and in school."
I hope you don't listen to them. Plenty of women have gotten married while they were in school, including when they were in law school.
+1. I got married immediately out of undergrad and had a baby in law school, on purpose. It was a great choice and if anything I should have gotten married/had babies sooner.
I've seen it work out spectacularly well for those who had a lot of help with childcare, either because of a supportive network of family and friends or because they could afford to hire it.
I've also seen a new mom without a whole lot of support struggle to stay in a Masters of Mathematics program, and now realize that, if I had been that mom, I would have, too, instead of being one of the top students. Granted, for every N children I bear, I effectively have N + 1 because of my own health challenges.
But if your discipline requires sustained concentration, you will need some hours of uninterrupted time to be "freed from your family" to get the work done. Many pull this off despite being very responsible, engaged parents -- but it's hard to do without help.
There's no need to be hard on yourself for that choice. Getting married at 22 after college and having a baby at the age of 23 (I'm guessing here) isn't much different than getting married at 18 after high school and having babies at around the age of 20.
In my experience one of the best ways to choose dependence/interdependence is to commit oneself to the slow, meaningful, good work of the world. For me in my twenties it was mentoring students who belonged to, and being part of organizational governance structures for, a fledgling NGO. This meant night meetings, spending my vacations traveling on behalf of this group, and being part of so many long email chains about strategy, mission, etc (and for as much as we bemoan Zoom it would have made those conversations WAY easier!). It's not always fun or exciting! But people cared if I showed up, and in those early days the dependence on each other to chart the formative course was real. There are as many ways to do this as there are people who do it and places where it is needed; join the parish council or the library board, run for city council, mentor someone, start a community garden, the list is literally endless. I've always loved the Buechner quote, "The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet."
Controversially, I've found the shift towards a hybrid or virtual work environment to be colossally useful in my/my family's ability to respond to people who need me. I can reshuffle my workload (or take it on the road) in case of things like a birth or death; as long as I meet my deadlines, nobody really cares when the work gets done. But that still only addresses being present or available or leaned-on in major times; I haven't really found a way to do that in minor ones, not lately and not in person.
In college I developed a reputation as the Mom Friend; I usually had a small first-aid kit on hand (very useful when everyone's favourite time to wield X-acto knives is 2am) and something to eat to offer. (Or at least coffee.) I was also a shoulder to lean or cry on if the girl you liked didn't like you back, or dumped you, or liked your friend, or so forth -- but this was all for my peers. The very structure of universities makes it difficult for undergrads to be part of the bigger society around them. I'm really interested to see what other opportunities arise and are suggested; I think the root of some of the lack of interconnectedness, especially for teens, is the car-dependency of most of the US. (Obviously this is a US-centric comment now.) If you can't get to a community event (or need to ask a busy parent for a ride or to use the car), that's certainly possibly a substantial barrier.
I really like the point about carrying handy things. It's a lot easier to step in to help if you know you have helpful things to offer. (I love the people at conventions who come with bandoliers of sewing supplies, so they can offer emergency costume repair).
I aspire to that!! I bring my sewing kit to every wedding I'm in and often every SCA event I attend. I've already done a ringside repair in the field by bringing it; someone's pantaloons ripped unwearably but she had enough looseness in them for a passable mend. it's VERY fun to be that guy!
About 15 minutes before my wedding, someone dropped an open thing of lipstick on my dress. There is no shade of lipstick that a wedding dress can hide. Immediately, one of my bridesmaids said, "Let's find a mom, she'll have wipes."
There is so much wonderful writing about the policies that will make our world more hospitable for all and encourage the strong social ties we both desire and need! I'm thinking especially of the work of Black feminists, reproductive justice advocates and moral philosophers like Audre Lorde, Angela Davis and bell hooks. We can establish thorough safety nets, encourage strong and non-exploitive relationships, abolish the commoditization and objectification of each other and our world.
But even in that most beautiful future, one that I truly believe we can create, abortion will exist. Or, depending on the speed of technological progress, girls and women will have embryos removed and grown elsewhere.
I *much* prefer that future over one where the state forces people to give birth, penalizes them or their doctors, and/or, in the name of fetal welfare, forces all embryos removed and externally gestated.
As a single man in my mid-twenties, I rejoice in being able to help my married friends by picking up their children from school when mom and dad both have to work, or serving as a sort of spiritual father-figure for kids whose biological father isn’t in the picture anymore. Conversely, because I live alone and am sometimes lonely, my married friends have given me a standing invitation to come over to their houses. They get help with the craziness of raising little kids, and I get companionship and a glimpse into family life which (God-willing) will one day make me a better father and husband than I would be without it.
As someone who depends on help with pick up, I am grateful! We usually walk, but that means I need help from someone with a car in heavy rain.
Dumb question, maybe, but if and how do you deal with the carseat issue? Do you keep a Mifold handy, or have you gotten really, really good at strapping in standard carseats?
We all want kids to be safe in the car, but increasing carseat requirements also make it harder to have someone else drive your kids (or to have more than two kids in the first place).
Hi Midge! Luckily for everyone involved, the children in question are all old enough not to need car seats, so I haven’t had to tackle that issue.
Thanks for the answer!
I keep an extra Cosco Scenera Next in my attic - it makes traveling with grandparents easier, installs quickly, is pretty inexpensive ($45) and fits kids 0-3. I have yet to find something as convenient for my 4yo. I have also done a double shift of driving with similarly sized kids - so for example my husband drove myself and the baby home from a party, then went back to drive our friends and their baby home because it was raining.
The Mifold is a "booster" that folds flat to about the size of a Manila envelope. It doesn't boost, but ensures the seatbelt goes low and tight across kids' laps and snugs the shoulder strap down. It has regulatory approval in the US and several other countries:
https://mifold.com/pages/policy-us-mifold
By now, there may be other approved products of similar design.
We needed to get a specific configuration of extra-narrow car seats, including a Mifold for our eldest, to fit our kids in our car:
https://thecarseatlady.com/narrowest-car-seats/
Oh man, I am 1.5 years from this being a possibility.
I'm looking forward to reading these responses because I've struggled with feeling unable to articulate my desire to be depended on. I moved to a new city relatively recently for law school and find the stark lack of any network of care/dependency so isolating. I spend a lot of my time with my academic cohort, and my colleagues really prize self-sufficiency. I've asked friends and peers for help before, but haven't had many opportunities to have anyone need my help, despite a conscious effort to proactively offer it. The "freedom" to be completely in control of my own schedule and concerned about only myself feels more like a prison. I've become more conscious about organizing my days around prayer or the church calendar as a way of freeing myself from so much self-determination.
I'm accustomed to being deeply involved in a church community where others depend on me to serve and pray, but I've found it shockingly challenging to establish roots in a new church community in my new city. Right now, my dating relationship is the place where I can both depend on someone else and be depended on in return. I would really like to get married in the near future, but have received lots of advice from friends that it's not the responsible thing to do while I'm still young and in school. I think many in our culture treat the desire to be depended on skeptically. Maybe this is because of greater awareness of how that desire can be problematic, like codependency that can strain a relationship, but I think there actually is a general sentiment in my circles that having needs that require others (like the need to be depended on) is inherently unhealthy.
One more thing. It's impossible to really know "what might have been," so take this with a grain of salt, but I suspect I am happier professionally than I would have been if I hadn't married him then. For ten years we've been getting to know each other better, having conversations to clarify what we really want to do, etc - and you can do that with friends, but having those conversations with the same person who remembers the last 100 times you talked about your goals, and who sees you act and react to various things along the way - that has been tremendously helpful for me in really clarifying my goals and seeking what I actually want instead of what I think I want or what I feel like I'm supposed to want.
Fwiw, I got married while my husband was still in undergrad. That was 10 years ago and we are doing really well. If both of you are responsible people, you can do it. There will be challenges, but if you have an attitude of "what is the best way for us to deal with this situation?" (as opposed to "can we deal with this situation?") then you'll find a way to deal with whatever comes up.
I'll just share more of my story because women who want marriage/children but are putting it off because of law school is one of my hobby horses.
My husband and I moved to a new city for law school where we did not know anyone and had no family. We had no money at all and since we were married we could not live in the student housing; we lived in a cheap, weird apartment two miles from school. This was a blessing because it forced us to get more integrated into a neighborhood and church rather than living in a toxic law school bubble (not all law school bubble are toxic but some can be!). We had to live apart in the summers so I could go to another city for internships/summer associateships. There were hard things about it and things I missed out on, but there are hard things about any choice; all choices mean you miss out on something.
When we had a baby, we depended on others. We asked for and received help from our church and my law school friends and professors, and my husband advocated for himself at work to get a reduced schedule. We did not have a lot of childcare, and I was not a top student, not even in the top half - but listen, 50% of your classmates are not in the top half either, whether or not they are married or have children. We still did not have much money and I would wash cloth diapers by hand in the bathtub with my casebooks open on the closed toilet and my baby in a carrier on my back so I could get the reading done for class. That part was not so fun, but it was temporary.
Today I'm a senior associate at a big law firm on track on make partner next year and we have three lovely young children; I work from home so I'm around for every meal, every bedtime, every time they get home from school and need to talk to their mom. And we already have 12 years of joyful marriage to sustain us and look back on.
There might be good reasons that now is not the right time for you and your boyfriend to get married, but that you are young and in law school isn't one of them.
I say this as a lawyer who has been in practice for a few years now: law students are some of the most personally dysfunctional people you’ll ever meet, and it is in your best interest to take the time to nurture friendships outside of that world. I am mostly happy in my professional choices, but I also made a lot of decisions during school and after that allowed me to have time for a life and do work I find personally meaningful (aka a LOT less money than the corporate gigs, but PSLF eligible).
Anyway, we’re five years out of school and lot of my friends are getting pregnant and realizing that they a) have no network outside of law school / lawyer friends and b) all those people are too busy to be of real help because all they do is work. And those who are still single are freaking out about their life choices. A lot of my friends now get why I made these “eccentric” choices in law school and are shifting their careers and goals to be more similar to mine.
That said, while I have a lot of good things going on I’m also in the singleton boat, so it is what it is?
PS - there’s never a “good” time to get married or have kids as a lawyer, because there’s always going to be the bar, or partner track, or trial, or whatever. If you’re confident in your relationship and feel that you are both emotionally mature enough for marriage, don’t be afraid and do it.
"I would really like to get married in the near future, but have received lots of advice from friends that it's not the responsible thing to do while I'm still young and in school."
I hope you don't listen to them. Plenty of women have gotten married while they were in school, including when they were in law school.
+1. I got married immediately out of undergrad and had a baby in law school, on purpose. It was a great choice and if anything I should have gotten married/had babies sooner.
I've seen it work out spectacularly well for those who had a lot of help with childcare, either because of a supportive network of family and friends or because they could afford to hire it.
I've also seen a new mom without a whole lot of support struggle to stay in a Masters of Mathematics program, and now realize that, if I had been that mom, I would have, too, instead of being one of the top students. Granted, for every N children I bear, I effectively have N + 1 because of my own health challenges.
But if your discipline requires sustained concentration, you will need some hours of uninterrupted time to be "freed from your family" to get the work done. Many pull this off despite being very responsible, engaged parents -- but it's hard to do without help.
There's no need to be hard on yourself for that choice. Getting married at 22 after college and having a baby at the age of 23 (I'm guessing here) isn't much different than getting married at 18 after high school and having babies at around the age of 20.
In my experience one of the best ways to choose dependence/interdependence is to commit oneself to the slow, meaningful, good work of the world. For me in my twenties it was mentoring students who belonged to, and being part of organizational governance structures for, a fledgling NGO. This meant night meetings, spending my vacations traveling on behalf of this group, and being part of so many long email chains about strategy, mission, etc (and for as much as we bemoan Zoom it would have made those conversations WAY easier!). It's not always fun or exciting! But people cared if I showed up, and in those early days the dependence on each other to chart the formative course was real. There are as many ways to do this as there are people who do it and places where it is needed; join the parish council or the library board, run for city council, mentor someone, start a community garden, the list is literally endless. I've always loved the Buechner quote, "The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet."
Controversially, I've found the shift towards a hybrid or virtual work environment to be colossally useful in my/my family's ability to respond to people who need me. I can reshuffle my workload (or take it on the road) in case of things like a birth or death; as long as I meet my deadlines, nobody really cares when the work gets done. But that still only addresses being present or available or leaned-on in major times; I haven't really found a way to do that in minor ones, not lately and not in person.
In college I developed a reputation as the Mom Friend; I usually had a small first-aid kit on hand (very useful when everyone's favourite time to wield X-acto knives is 2am) and something to eat to offer. (Or at least coffee.) I was also a shoulder to lean or cry on if the girl you liked didn't like you back, or dumped you, or liked your friend, or so forth -- but this was all for my peers. The very structure of universities makes it difficult for undergrads to be part of the bigger society around them. I'm really interested to see what other opportunities arise and are suggested; I think the root of some of the lack of interconnectedness, especially for teens, is the car-dependency of most of the US. (Obviously this is a US-centric comment now.) If you can't get to a community event (or need to ask a busy parent for a ride or to use the car), that's certainly possibly a substantial barrier.
I really like the point about carrying handy things. It's a lot easier to step in to help if you know you have helpful things to offer. (I love the people at conventions who come with bandoliers of sewing supplies, so they can offer emergency costume repair).
I've asked moms of young kids for a bandaid as a grown up, figuring they might be able to help me.
I aspire to that!! I bring my sewing kit to every wedding I'm in and often every SCA event I attend. I've already done a ringside repair in the field by bringing it; someone's pantaloons ripped unwearably but she had enough looseness in them for a passable mend. it's VERY fun to be that guy!
About 15 minutes before my wedding, someone dropped an open thing of lipstick on my dress. There is no shade of lipstick that a wedding dress can hide. Immediately, one of my bridesmaids said, "Let's find a mom, she'll have wipes."
There is so much wonderful writing about the policies that will make our world more hospitable for all and encourage the strong social ties we both desire and need! I'm thinking especially of the work of Black feminists, reproductive justice advocates and moral philosophers like Audre Lorde, Angela Davis and bell hooks. We can establish thorough safety nets, encourage strong and non-exploitive relationships, abolish the commoditization and objectification of each other and our world.
But even in that most beautiful future, one that I truly believe we can create, abortion will exist. Or, depending on the speed of technological progress, girls and women will have embryos removed and grown elsewhere.
I *much* prefer that future over one where the state forces people to give birth, penalizes them or their doctors, and/or, in the name of fetal welfare, forces all embryos removed and externally gestated.